I assume that this rally will take place on Thursday, October 20?

yes, sorry about that omission, the Rally will take place on Thursday october 20th

If you people were so concerned about "academic freedom" there would a conservative speaker there too. How is what he beleives different from a terrorist? answer: it's not

Get a clue. When is the last time a right wing speaker brought up a counterpoint at one of their presentations? This is a talk about a certain individuals views & ideas, not a debate. Before you even start in with all the crap about "what about fair representation for both sides", go turn on Fox News or basically any other large news organization and then tell me who is getting more air time. Bill O'Riley has both a national television show & radio program, the only left wing shows I can really think of have very limited distribution and have a hard time finding carriers because the media conglomerates that own everything won't let them speak. But no, your right, it isn't fair that Ward Churchill speak to a small crowd at a college without a representative from the right to turn it into a debate as opposed to him stating his beliefs.

"How is what he believes different from a terrorist?" How is what the US government does different from a terrorist? Speaking out against an organization with a proven track record of murder, torture and genocide doesn't sound like terrorism to me, it sounds like something more people should be doing. Hell, I'll go you one step further, believing and advocating for the violent overthrow of that organization still sounds like something that can be easily defended.

The difference between that and terrorism is terrorism is something directed at the general public, the common person who has no real involvement (other then apathy) in whatever the terrorist is attempting to change. An attack on the US government, an organization that is killing and torturing people (both abroad and on our own soil) is an act of terrorism only because the US government says it is. Its the same way that the US decides what atrocities committed around the world are wrong and which are acceptable. Genocide and terrorism in a country that supports and helps us, ignorable. Genocide and terrorism in a country that doesn't support or help us, we need instant action taken against them.

How is your comment relevant to the actual facts? Answer: it's not.

Get a clue. When is the last time a right wing speaker brought up a counterpoint at one of their presentations? This is a talk about a certain individuals views & ideas, not a debate. Before you even start in with all the crap about "what about fair representation for both sides", go turn on Fox News or basically any other large news organization and then tell me who is getting more air time. Bill O'Riley has both a national television show & radio program, the only left wing shows I can really think of have very limited distribution and have a hard time finding carriers because the media conglomerates that own everything won't let them speak. But no, your right, it isn't fair that Ward Churchill speak to a small crowd at a college without a representative from the right to turn it into a debate as opposed to him stating his beliefs.

"How is what he believes different from a terrorist?" How is what the US government does different from a terrorist? Speaking out against an organization with a proven track record of murder, torture and genocide doesn't sound like terrorism to me, it sounds like something more people should be doing. Hell, I'll go you one step further, believing and advocating for the violent overthrow of that organization still sounds like something that can be easily defended.

The difference between that and terrorism is terrorism is something directed at the general public, the common person who has no real involvement (other then apathy) in whatever the terrorist is attempting to change. An attack on the US government, an organization that is killing and torturing people (both abroad and on our own soil) is an act of terrorism only because the US government says it is. Its the same way that the US decides what atrocities committed around the world are wrong and which are acceptable. Genocide and terrorism in a country that supports and helps us, ignorable. Genocide and terrorism in a country that doesn't support or help us, we need instant action taken against them.

How is your comment relevant to the actual facts? Answer: it's not.

J.

"the only left wing shows I can really think of have very limited distribution and have a hard time finding carriers because the media conglomerates that own everything won't let them..."

No, because the market doesn't like it. Left-wing rants are way too segmented and fringe for advertisers.

maverick,

Why should there be a conservative speaker at this clown's show? Ward is a PROVEN fraud and charlatan. Debating this sociopath is an utter waste of time.

I'm sorry. Proof please?

#file_1#

"We must take a stand against those who wish to silence progressive voices." Really? Name one invited speaker at DePaul campus in the past 5 years who was a conservative. Want to make it 10?

Only a politically correct control freak organization like ASU would consider criticizing and protesting Churchill for his comments as silencing him. To them, no one should every be allowed to challenge their beliefs. Their attitude is that free speech is only for everyone who agrees with them. Otherwise, say that you're so offended that you demand even professors be banned from campus (like "Stupids for Just-Us in Palestine" and "United Morons Moving without a Head", and other Muslim terrorist groups have succeed in getting with the DePaulling Dean and Presidunce.)

Why don't you ask Ward Churchill himself why he demanded that the event be closed to the public, and that students aren't allowed to record it? Why don't you have him tell us students how much he got paid with our money?

Ward Churchill as a spokesperson on human rights for people of color? Is that why he talks about his fondness for having Madeline Allbright and Colin Powell murdered? Notice how silent he is on human rights atrocities and gennocides in everywhere else in the world that's Non-North American? Take for instance, Sudan (forced slavery by Muslim ruling class), or Saudi Arabia and Taliban Era Afganistan. Think it has something to do that he won't say anything to offend Right-wing Muslims? Not "right wing" as in "pro George Bush" -- right wing as in they're the ruling class in their respective countries and they suppress all dissent through torture, rape and murder. But not a peep out of Churchill on that. Makes you think where he gets more of his funding, doesn't it?

I may not share the beliefs of the College Republicans, but I know they have the courage to publicly debate the merits of free speech with any one from ASU, the DePaul Administration, the Muslim Groups, and Ward Churchill himself. Too bad when you even mention the word "debate" to these lefist tyrannists that they run to the nearest DePaul administrator and say they need to be protected from opposing (and we can say "smarter") viewpoints. See how much they've become just like the far right!

Ward Churchill can't speak legitimately about human rights... He's a human wrong.

ASU people and other students need to join the College Republicans and stand up for free speech for EVERYONE, not just the people who's politics you personally like. Otherwise, you have double standards... which really means you have no standards.

More hot air. I repeat: Proof please...

I may not share the beliefs of the College Republicans...

Please note: MAY NOT SHARE. That ought to read, PROBABLY DO SHARE.

Stop supporting terrorist thugs!

Are those last 2 pictures from Red Dawn? Please tell me they are. Because that would make me laugh so damn hard. More people should have the guts to use Patrick Swayze movies as a basis for political debate.

Patrick was a fag. I was the real star of that film. JJ says so.

It is from Red Dawn, and it shows soviet commies getting the shit kicked out of them.

Ward Churchill is a traitor!

VIVA BUSH!

Ward is a traitor!

Soldiers and Marines shooting officers was a factor in the near disintegration of the US military machine in Vietnam. Behind this, of course, stood the indominable will of the Vietnamese to be free of foreign domination, and the brillant military leadership of Gen. Vo Nugyen Giap. Still a heroic figure at age 95.

progressives oppose free speech and reject transparency in public dialogue.

there were a total of 230 incidents amongst the 7 million individual service records over the entire ten years of the war.

your cheerleading of military fratricide does not support vietnam people, but rather a sino-soviet takeover of that nation in which 100,000 vietnamese people were slaughtered in the name of social justice and millions more risked death at sea attempting to escape. today, vietnam remains unfree and impoverished.

good job flower-children. you murdered hundreds of thousands of dark-skinned peasants a half a world away in glorification of your "ideals", and now seek to inflict the same on iraqis.

and i should add, shame. shame on you.

and i should add, shame. shame on you.

professor klocek -- silence him.

professor churchill -- silence dissent on his behalf.

if anyone is looking for irony or hypocrisy in this, there is none. depaul university is a straightforeward institution of the totalitarian left.

first of all- get your facts straight. Churchill did not decide to close the event to non-University people, it was the Cultural Center that made that decision, after recieving threats to not only disrupt the event, but to inflict physical harm on people who work in the cultural center.

Second of all the people who fired Klocek are not the same people bringing Churchill. LIke any big University (DePaul is the largest Catholic University in the US) there are different departments, clubs and sections of the University that bring out different aspects.

Further Klocek crossed the boundraries of Free Speech. If a pro-palestine professor did to Isreal's DePaul Friends what Klocek did to Students for Justice in Palestine, I can assure you DePaul would have gotten rid of them as well. AS it is we still have a number of pro-isreal right wing professors at DePaul, some in the Political Science department even.

As for calls for a right winger to debate churchill, maybe people like Horrowitz and Coultiier would be open to having Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, Bob Avakian and others debate them at every event they do?

Although I should point out that almost every year it's Students for Justice in Palestine that talk to the Zionists at DePaul about having a debate. And everytime it's the zionists who end up turning it down. If I recall correctly, the Zionists want to talk only about how to have peace, but SJP points out that you can't have peace without jutice, and the zionists refuse a debate that delas with issues of Justice.

Oh and a message for the protest warriors- the University only allows student groups who have their fliers approved posted on the bulletin boards. But I did enjoy the flier, if only it didn't say protest warrior on it, I would have thought it was one of our pro-Ward groups that posted it.

Finally to the "citizen for real free speeach"- Do you consider slander and hate talk against student groups free speech? I'm not fan of "political correctness" but calling members of United Muslims Moving Ahead "Morons" was deeply offensive.

Dear DePaul Student,

Why bother debating fringe lunatics like Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, Bob Avakian, Ward Churchill? These clowns should hang out with their mirror-image, David Duke.

The mainstream doesn't like fascism, marxism, socialism or anarchism.

"...it was the Cultural Center that made that decision, after recieving threats to not only disrupt the event, but to inflict physical harm on people who work in the cultural center."

i'm inclined to assume that these must be the same sort of threats alicia hardin recieved. but if we were to believe this convenient and difficult-to-verify dodge, we'd still have to consider the separate-but-equal response with regard to the very few conservative speakers allowed on campuses in chicago.

threats were made here to disrupt the presentation of and "inflict physical harm" upon david horowitz, and i've seen social justice activists disrupt his speaking engagements on other campuses. i'm certain these intentions were broadcast to similar authorities on those campuses. certainly much worse was directed at the student organizations which invited him.

but no campus in any instance i know of volunteered to suppress opposition the way it has done to protect churchill from even being presented with questions that may challenge the substance of his claims.

the steps to which campus authorities go to prevent anyone on the left from suffering the humiliating "violence" of getting pied in the face pretty much defines the fragility of the glass house they've built for the left on our campuses.

"...Further Klocek crossed the boundraries of Free Speech."

he called "fire!" in a crowded theater? he incited people to criminal acts? no. he had an argument about the middle-east with a student.

ironicly, churchill has incited people to criminal acts in a rather explisit fashion, but depaul forks over ten grand and ensures him of ideological homogeneity in the audience to bring him on campus.

"If a pro-palestine professor did to Isreal's DePaul Friends what Klocek did to Students for Justice in Palestine, I can assure you DePaul would have gotten rid of them as well."

which was...? do you mean basing his argumnent on the non-existence of "palstine"? that's simply stating the facts. to state that fact does not imply an impulse to eradicate people who live in the the area called palestine.

on the other hand, when a pro-palestinian activist, be he professor or student, calls out, "from the river to the sea..." he or she is talking about the eradication of israel.

so, the answer is "no" the same would not happen if the roles were reversed.

"AS it is we still have a number of pro-isreal right wing professors at DePaul, some in the Political Science department even."

i'm certain the campus left will have that grave issue rectified sooner or later.

"...And everytime it's the zionists who end up turning it down. If I recall correctly, *the Zionists want to talk only about how to have peace*, but SJP points out that you can't have peace without jutice, and the zionists refuse a debate that delas with issues of Justice."

"justice" is a euphamism for continued murder of israeli civilians untill and unless a "one-state solution" is achieved. in other words, the anti-israel faction on campus refuses to enter into any discussion which is not based on the premise that israel is to be dismantled and its population removed by non-official means.

on the other hand, when israelis call for peace, they mean peace.

"Oh and a message for the protest warriors- the University only allows student groups who have their fliers approved posted on the bulletin boards."

the flier was posted by the campus gop or whoever, not protest warrior. you should direct your comments to them. the fliers were censored. imagine that -- political speech censored at an american university.

"...if only it didn't say protest warrior on it, I would have thought it was one of our pro-Ward groups that posted it."

so, you don't feel misrepresented by the flier then. good.

"I'm not fan of "political correctness" but calling members of United Muslims Moving Ahead "Morons" was deeply offensive."

that's a one-liner. like: "i'm not a smoker, but do you have one you can spare?"

way to go Kurt. you went from a person who offered more or less arguments to just kinda shouting insults. HOrowitz would be proud!

It seems that there are far right and far left morons on both sides and they are the ones reading it.

Most intelligent adults realize that the war in vietnam lasted about 10 years and hence obviously killing officers wasn't that bright of an idea. And having a poor vietman probably was a bad idea too.
Then the right wingers come in and shout insults at groups that want to practice free speech and then say that their speech is wrong.
And assume that god loves america and hence whatever US does must be great. NO questions asked.

Oh well.

One PW at the Churchill protest was wearing a shirt with a Limbaugh message on the back, reading something like "Take a break from Jihad stress" with "Camp Gitmo" on the front.

With even John "Mad Bomber" McCain condemning US torture operations, PW celebrates it. When do you break out the brown shirts, guys?

Where was the ASU and Students against the War? As far as I could tell, only Protest Warriors showed up at the rally with a dabble of World Cant Wait (New Socialist Part?) You guys have to make a better showing if you want to sway opinion. I saw lots of DP students who werent even planning on going to the event stop and agree with the counter-churchill crowd. Maybe you guys need a new spokesman, the guy with the goofy hair just doesn't cut it any longer!

That is where he should go.

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