"We respect the teaching authority of the Church;" and, "the moral teachings of the Church are always in dialog with the broader lived experiences..."

These phrases indicate that the priests are not concerned about justice for gay people, but pastoral care only with the church strictures against homosexual expression left in place.

Presumably in the absence of any indication to the contrary, this excludes gay access to marriage equality against which the hierarchy including the Vatican has been nearly hysterical.

Sure, the hateful rhetoric has been abusive. But the abusive invective would not be there were it not for the fundamental antigay "moral teaching" which the [of course all male] priest signatories to this statement seem to uphold.

And what of Michael Pflager? Does his outspoken concern for justice extend from African-Americans to gay folk? I didn't notice his name on the letter.

Those who want to protest the anti-gay teachings of the church should concern themselves especially with the attempt by rightwing Protestants, Catholics and others to impose an amendment to the Constitution which besides banning same sex marriage, would wipe out protections for Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals and Trans people in localities across the country. If passed, it would be the first time (with the temporary exception of Prohibition) that the Constitution was amended to TAKE AWAY rights.

CABN, in concert with activists around the country in the DontAmend.com network, will protest for equal marriage rights and against the proposed Constitutional amendment on Saturday, February 14, 2004. Chicago's protest will be in front of Cardinal George's residence, North Ave & State, at 12 noon on that day. George has positioned himself as a particularly vociferous opponent of same sex marriage, and equal rights for LGBT people in general.

CABN, the Advocacy Committee of Chicago's Advisory Council on Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered Issues, and others will sponsor a Town Hall Meeting, "What's At Stake in the Marriage Debate?," at 6:30 pm, Thursday, Jan. 15 at the First Methodist Temple, 77 W. Washington, Chicago (Washington & Clark Streets, across the street from Daley Plaza).

Bob, please don't jump to conclusions. Much more latent in this letter I think is support for LGBT&Q. Please do not simplify the Catholic church into one group with one thought. Many of us Catholics feel one pope is too many. The church is like one's family, and we work within our families to make them better.

yes, the priests are all male. there is also a growing movement within the church for more participation on the part of lay people.

I implore those examining the issue to strive for a multi-dimensional view, to go beyond old stereo-types, and to not cause more harm through wanton demonization. Let us help this time become a moment of progress for LGBT&Q and all of us. The above people have come forth as supporters, let us work together.

yours,
Carlos

"We join the countless men and women, heterosexual and homosexual, who seek justice, mercy and compassion in and through the Catholic Church. "

Hey, how come the signees are all men? Oh, that's right - the sexist catholic church refuses to ordain women. Oh well.

Dear *.*,

no, not "oh well", -many of us are concerned about this and working on it.

in my time we now have alter-girls. women also play a significant role in the church. let us not forget nuns, who have done very significant things in education.

please don't polarize the situation- do you want progress to stop? does putting people on the defensive really help win them over?

yours,
carlos

Carlos, you seem to be genuinely concerned about church, i.e., hierarchal, abuses toward women and gays. I would add the poor who are abused by people like Mother Theresa. No wonder she's Karl Wotija's kind of saint.

You may be part of a Catholic "family." I am not. But like it or not, and I don't, I am victimized by people like Pope Karl Wotija and Francis George and all but three of the bishops who voted to back the hateful antigay marriage amendment to the Constitution.

And George has worked behind the scenes, so far successfully, to block passage of SB 101, the gay rights bill in Springfield. When he first arrived in Chicago, he condemned the ordinance that gave some benefits to same sex city workers, calling it "pretended marriage." I heard him proclaim on TV that "neither the legislature nor the church can change the definition of marriage. That is set by god and natural law." There you have it, marriage according to the authoritarian mindset. All we are supposed to do is accept what is obvious to George and other medievalists. Don't think so.

I think these guys are desperate to change the subject from the pedophile scandal, and we gays are a convenient scapegoat.

Those of you who are inside the belly of this beast and want to help us who are assulted by the church, need to forcefully speak out, and maybe loudly break away from an institution that is not likely to jettison its medieval cult figure and authoritarian hierarchy in favor of rule by the laity that you appear to prefer.

You ought not lecture the victims of Catholic church bigotry on how we ought to proceed in winning our liberation.

Thank You!

Although missing names of high-profile pastors, I appreciate the difficulty the letter is to write for many priests. The timing of this letter during the holiday season is a gift for many (myself included).

Scholars have proved the compliicity of the Vatican and Nazi Germany, in time, the disturbing language in vogue with Vatican officials, will reveal something odious.

Now, if the Church would recognize the separation of Church and state and not meddle in politics of any kind, all persons would benefit.

Again, thank you.

Bob, yes, you are right about mother theresa, she had her own political machine going on, and the powerful loved to coopt her as a convenient saint. she fed the poor, but did not ask why they were poor; therefore she was made a saint, not a communist.

again, i agree, they are desperate to change the spotlight from the pedaphile scandal, and if this reaction is not stopped more people will be victimized.

all i'm asking is that people don't polarize ALL catholics into one group and demonize them. The above clergy has come out in support, probably because some of 'us' are victims of this hatred too.

I apologise if i came across as lecturing. I also read the letter as being more open to LGBT&Q.

My concern is beyond LGBT&Q and women's equality. it includes many things, including poverty.

it is an interesting thing about the church and politics, separation of church and state. in many ways the state would have us put borders on our ethics. what is politics and what is morality. do we not work for social justice because it is political? I agree that the churches should not have elected representatives in government. honestly i really don't like the hierarchy of the catholic church. but like living in the States, i and others feel we can do more good by staying and trying to improve it.

For what it's worth, Bob, the last time I was at Pfleger's church, his sermon stressed the need to avoid judging people, and specifically mentioned gays and lesbians in that regard.

Has any other group of people within the Body of Christ been so assaulted and violated by such mean-spirited language?

Yes, they are called traditionalist's and have been persecuted by the Vatican & Bishops much more extensively then the Homosexuals.

Question: If calling a Homosexual, a homosexual, is considered abusive language, what is it we are supposed to call them, that would be considered non-abusive? Would not this be the same as not calling a bengal tiger a bengal tiger?

Has any other group of people within the Body of Christ been so assaulted and violated by such mean-spirited language?

Yes, they are called traditionalist's and have been persecuted by the Vatican & Bishops much more extensively then the Homosexuals.

Question: If calling a Homosexual, a homosexual, is considered abusive language, what is it we are supposed to call them, that would be considered non-abusive? Would not this be the same as not calling a bengal tiger a bengal tiger?

Has any other group of people within the Body of Christ been so assaulted and violated by such mean-spirited language?

Yes, they are called traditionalist's and have been persecuted by the Vatican & Bishops much more extensively then the Homosexuals.

Question: If calling a Homosexual, a homosexual, is considered abusive language, what is it we are supposed to call them, that would be considered non-abusive? Would not this be the same as not calling a bengal tiger a bengal tiger?

I wish all those who have already left the Church would give up their seats and go. No one needs a Church that has no moral component. Does anything remain taboo to those who oppose the Church on this issue? Oh, yeah, I'm sure the notion that there could be a "just war", any non-marxist economic theory and similar ideas are also off limits to these "tolerant" individuals.

The term "homosexual" is not offensive, JWDT.
But are you living in a cave?

The Vatican and its minions here in the US have denounced gay adoptions, for example, as "doing violence to children." Homosexuality is termed an "intrinsic disorder." Same sex civil unions or benefits conveyed by government called
"pretended marriage." The Vatican and the US Bishop's conference have demanded passage of a Constitutional amendment to prohibit equal access to a civil contract!

Gay sexual expression is, of course, the ever popular "sinful," but we "love the sinner."

Karol Wotija condemned the EuroPride celebrations in Rome several years ago as "an affront to the faithful," and demanded that the Rome government rescind its permit to the gay festival.

If these things were said and done to blacks or Jews, people would rightly be up in arms. "How offensive is that?" they'd ask.

Cardinal George has said that marriage is "set by god and natural law." And of course, to inveigh against that is grounds for a firm response by some who take enforcing god's will to violence. Can you spell I-N-Q-U-I-S-I-T-I-O-N?

Next time hit the "add comment" button only once.

Do they support the gay life style that is being forced down our throats by the Liberal establishment, or do they support the teachings of Jesus Christ. It would be nice if this group left the Church as it is quite apparent they are bleeding heart liberals, gay Priests who are active gays are a major problem.

I guess that because sodomites do not like to be called sodomites or homosexual, or persons with "same-sex disorders" (Check out the Catholic Medical Association website for some really interesting medical information), we are all supposed to go and cry for them. They call themselves "gay," but they really are not. Really, those who actively practice this perversion have a life expectancy of less than 50. They don't tell anyone that, now do they? The pastors and those who support them should all be excommunicated immediately (even though according to Canon Law, they are pretty much self excommunicated anyway). Now that they are out of the closet fully, we can tell our friends which churches in Chicago to completely avoid. Thanks, guys!!! In fact, I have already called and told my brother NOT to attend one of these churches in his home town. The word can spread quickly now. Thanks again!!

I'm a devout Catholic, and I aint leaving the Church in the hands of mean-spirited, bigoted pricks like Traddie.

We are not required to believe that there is anything wrong with homosexuality. We have the choice to believe that, and large parts of the hierarchy do (all members of the hierarchy, because they take a vow of obedience, are supposed to as well -- that's what makes the statement by the priests above courageous.)

As a devout Catholic, I think the bigoted statements by the Curia are wrong, sick, and un-Christian. Jesus would not be happy with the way his ostensible servants deal with his GLBT brothers and sisters, and that's putting it mildly.

Your own ignorance on the subject is demonstrated by your use of the term "sodomites" to describe gays. Sodom was not destroyed because of its inhabitants' sexual preferences. Sodom was destroyed because the sodomites mistreated strangers.

You, Traddie, are the sodomite. May God have mercy on your soul. . . .

Fire and brimstone for you, chump.

I'm a devout Catholic, and I aint leaving the Church in the hands of mean-spirited, bigoted pricks like Traddie.

We are not required to believe that there is anything wrong with homosexuality. We have the choice to believe that, and large parts of the hierarchy do (all members of the hierarchy, because they take a vow of obedience, are supposed to as well -- that's what makes the statement by the priests above courageous.)

As a devout Catholic, I think the bigoted statements by the Curia are wrong, sick, and un-Christian. Jesus would not be happy with the way his ostensible servants deal with his GLBT brothers and sisters, and that's putting it mildly.

Your own ignorance on the subject is demonstrated by your use of the term "sodomites" to describe gays. Sodom was not destroyed because of its inhabitants' sexual preferences. Sodom was destroyed because the sodomites mistreated strangers.

You, Traddie, are the sodomite. May God have mercy on your soul. . . .

Fire and brimstone for you, chump.

This is another example of members of the clergy caving in to the pro-gay zeitgeist. It's as if these clergy never heard the of the saying "sticks and stones..." Words only sting if they touch conscience. As a person struggling with same-sex attraction, I welcome the Vatican's clear and firm stand on the topic. I suppose if I wanted to justify acting on the inclination, then I might need sweet and consoling words of compassion. But for those that are attempting to fight it, and live chastly for Christ alone, we perfer a battle cry instead. Christus Vincit, Christus Regnat, Christus Imperat!

Just curious if any of you have heard of the terms "Natural Law" & "Objective Truth"?

Bob, the lifestyle & choice is an affront to Christ the King. Since it is so contrary to God's Law (once again see NL & OT) it must be condemned by the Magisterium. Maybe the Inquisition should come back for those that are not inclined to agree with this lifestyle.

J...mean spirited, bigoted....c'mon now...I really question if you are such a devout Catholic that you do not understand the Scriptural reference to Sodom & Gomorrah..immorality of the people was why they were condemned....also didn't Jesus drive the money changers & such out of the Temple...and didn't he call people Pharisee's (a derogatory term as well)...hhmmm...seems to me that maybe the Magisterium is following HIS lead.

Well, JWDT, if you actually knew something about our Church, as opposed to just parroting what your bigoted friends tell you, you'd know that the Inquisition hasn't gone anwhere. It just changed its name to the Sacred Congregation For The Doctrine Of The Faith. It's currently headed by the uber-Cardinal, Ratzinger, who is responsible for much of the bigotry spewing from the Curia these days. I suspect you've heard of Ratzinger -- he's popular with the fascist wing of the Church.

But he has no hold over me, or any other Catholic who chooses to condemn his bigotry. I'm a communicant, not clergy, and I've taken no vow of obedience. So Ratzinger can spew all the bigoted poison he wishes, and I'm free to thumb my nose at him and call him on his sin. He can't touch me so long as I adhere to the fundamental dogma, and anti-gay bigotry is not, and never has been, part of our fundamental dogma. I challenge you to quate me an ex cathedra pronouncement condemning homosexuality. And don't come back to me with that nonsense from Ratzinger and his cronies -- those are not ex cathedra pronouncements. Even our conservative Pope has not made such an ex cathedra statement on the subject of homosexuality. The issue is still wide open. And I'm confident that, when the ex cathedra pronouncement comes, it will be against anti-gay bigotry.


Ratzinger is exactly the sort of Pharisee condemned by Our Lord. The choice for Catholics is whetehr they follow this Pharisee, or whether they follow the example of Jesus, and recognize the divinity of every human being.

You're one of the 99 obedient sheep, abandoned by the shepherd to search for the one who strayed, who tested his free will and, in so doing, made God smile.

God doesn't want automatons -- people who just do what they're told. You have chosen to obey bigotry over love.

Fire and brimstone for you, chump.

BTW, in case you haven't noticed, a large percentage of the clergy are gay. And, strangely, the ranks of the hardline clergy (your heroes)are rife with closeted gays.

Perhaps there's some self-hatred going on here for these boys? And for you? As a straight guy, I always wonder about supposedly straight guys who get all bent out of shape about homosexuality. The virulence seems to have more to do with a personal problem than anything in the society.

Inquiring minds. . . . .

J.,

"divinity of every human being"??? If you really believe that liberal and modernist type of thinking, you might meditate on the meaning of the First Commandment.

Man is not divine, but rather a creature subject to the natural law.

FR Andrew Greeley a LIBERAL wrote "But even in Chicago, the ring of predators remains untouched , there is no evidence against them because no one has complained about them and none of their fellow Priests has denounced them.Those who have been removed are for the most part lone offenders who lacked the skills to cover their tracks. The ring is much more clever.But should they be caught, the previous scandals will seem trival" There was a footnote to Father Greeleys letter" THEY ARE A DANGEROUS GROUP" There is reason to believe they are responsible for at least one MURDER, and may perhaps have been involved in the murder of the murderer. The murdered Priest in Chicago was Fr Anthony Pellegrini of St Anthony of Padua Catholic Church who at the time was allegedly about to expose the activities of a clergy sex/pedophile ring.
So to the Priests who wrote this letter, are you with the teachings of Christ, or are you part of this alledeged ring, if I were a parishioner in any of these parishes I would certainly want these Priests to be investigated or to publicly renounce this letter supporting gay rights and trying to intimidate those who speak out when we feel that something is radically wrong with some Bishops and Priests and their very soft attitude towards the Sodom and Gomorrah tribes.Time to wake up in Chicago folks.

Don't change the subject to pedophile priests.

That's a different subject entirely.

Most gays are not pedophiles, and most gays find pedophilia as obnoxious as most straights. Similarly, most gay clergy are not pedophiles, and most gay clergy find pedophilia as obnoxious as most straight clergy.

And gays hardly have a monopoly on pedophilia. Most of the pedophilia in this world is the responsibility of heterosexuals.

And there is absolutely nothing "modern" about our belief in the divinity of every human being. Every human being was created in the image of God, and every human being thereby participates in divinity. That belief goes back to the very beginning of our faith.

You. Sir, are apparently a heretic. Repent! There is still hope for you. Abandon your bigotry and error. Jesus loves you too (yes, he even loves fascist bigots.) He wants you to be saved.

But you have to make the choice.

Don't change the subject to pedophile priests.

That's a different subject entirely.

Most gays are not pedophiles, and most gays find pedophilia as obnoxious as most straights. Similarly, most gay clergy are not pedophiles, and most gay clergy find pedophilia as obnoxious as most straight clergy.

And gays hardly have a monopoly on pedophilia. Most of the pedophilia in this world is the responsibility of heterosexuals.

And there is absolutely nothing "modern" about our belief in the divinity of every human being. Every human being was created in the image of God, and every human being thereby participates in divinity. That belief goes back to the very beginning of our faith.

You. Sir, are apparently a heretic. Repent! There is still hope for you. Abandon your bigotry and error. Jesus loves you too (yes, he even loves fascist bigots.) He wants you to be saved.

But you have to make the choice.

Do not atack your bigoted brothers so harshly, J. Jesus would not approve.

We must pray for them. It is ignorance and error which leads them to stray into the sin of inhuman bigotry. But there is hope for them, just as there is hope for every sinner.

Conquer their sin with love, not with harsh criticism.

They too are created in the image of God.

I acknowledge your point, Pax Christi.

But I believe we're obliged to call them on their sin, especially when they attack innocents.

As was pointed out in the posts concerning those white pupremacist bands scheduled to play at the Empty Bottle, there is a deep psychological connection between repressed homosexuality and fascism. These anti-gay bigots are so afraid of their own homosexuality that they set up a rigid wall within themselves to blind themselves from the truth of their own souls. If that was all there is to it, I'd leave them alone, and just pray for them. I realize that they are gay too, and it is only their refusal to recognized their inner homosexuality which makes them fascists.

I can love the gay within them, but I have a hard time accepting the fascism, because that hurts others.

Unless and until they recognize their own inner truth, and come out of the closet, the world will be plagued with the sin of anti-gay bigotry, and fascism.

They may be pathetic but, so long as they remain dangerous, they must be confronted.

Please tell me where my thinking is wrong! I see no where in your examples, that any person is mentioned, rather it is their actions. I see this as the responsibility of the Vatican and all Bishops and you Pastors to teach this. Does Jesus teach us to be inclusive to the Devil and his works of evil?

Bob,

chill out.

we're not all against you.

okay?
carlos

Gays folks suck .

First you get down on your knees,
Fiddle with your rosaries,
Bow your head with great respect,
And genuflect, genuflect, genuflect!
Do whatever steps you want, if
You have cleared them with the Pontiff.
Everybody say his
own Kyrie eleison,
Doin' the Vatican Rag.

Get in line in that processional,
Step into that small confessional,
There’s, the guy who's got religional
Tell you if your sin's original.
If it is, try playin' it safer,
Drink the wine and chew the wafer,
Two, four, six, eight,
Time to transubstantiate!

So get down upon your knees,
Fiddle with your rosaries,
Bow your head with great respect,
And genuflect, genuflect, genuflect!
Make a cross on your abdomen,
When in Rome do like a Roman,
Ave Maria,
Gee it's good to see ya,
Gettin' ecstatic an'
Sort of dramatic an'
Doin' the Vatican Rag!

The fact of the matter is that the percentage of priests guilty of pedophilia is quite low. Most of the cases involved homosexual priests committing acts of homosexual pederasty. "Facts are stubborn things."

It is once again a sad for the Catholic Church. What has been morally wrong since the very beginning - St Peter taught against the sin of homosexuality - continues to plague us today. Homosexuality was wrong then, is now, and will always be. It amazes me that these same priests complain about the shortage of vocations - it is statements and beliefs like these that pushes the Holy Spirit away, puts one's own pleasures before doing God's will. People today don't like to be told what they do is wrong and hurtful to their relationship with Christ and his church.

The Catholic church must teach the truth - wheather you like or not is not important. I will pray for all you, the priests listed, and those who read this article and agree with its message.

Obedience to Christs will is difficult - expecially when it points out that you are on the wrong path.

In Christ,

Tim

Fr Anthony Pellegrini is murdered as he is about to expose homosexuality in the Church, the liberal Jesuits and their liberation theology indisputably had a part in the murder of their more conservative diocesan priest in nuns in South America as well as consciously and intentionally attempting to humiliate the Pope during his visit hoping to correct the view that such conduct is not compatible with a Church that at one time valued human life and, finally, we learn that thousands of young boys have been molested by homosexual priests (yes, 97.2% of the vicims were adolescent and pre-adolescents).

Yet we are told that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because they were not good hosts!

Folks, the "tolerant" liberals are not here to teach us love and tolerance for each other. They are here to remake the Church into their own image and to destroy by any means those who oppose them. They are fascists of the worst kind who will stop at nothing until they have destroyed all dissent.

The inquisition lives, but it is not the one the modernists condemn. The inquisition today is operated and wielded by the modernists in precisely the manner it was once misused by others.

Bigoted homophobes are struggling with their own repressed homosexuality. But there is hope for these sinners, just as there is hope for murderers and thieves.

All you need to realize, Brother Tim, is that the The Lord loves you. Nothing about your repressed homosexual desires is sinful. It is instead your refusal to recognize the truth of your own soul which is sinful. Worse, you project your internal struggle on to others, and lash out at innocents who have rightly abandoned their self-denial. In so doing, you attack the very Body of Christ.

I will pray for you. I have a minsitry which specializes in curing homophobia. I would be happy to put our services at your disposal.

"Knock, and the door will be opened. . . "

Fr Anthony Pellegrini is murdered as he is about to expose homosexuality in the Church, the liberal Jesuits and their liberation theology indisputably had a part in the murder of their more conservative diocesan priest and nuns in South America as well as intentionally attempting to undermine and humiliate the Pope during his visit to South America to reiterate that that the murder of religious is not an acceptable means to achieve any end and, finally, we learn that thousands of young boys have been molested by homosexual priests (yes, 97.2% of the victims were adolescent and pre-adolescents boys).

Yet we are told that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because they were not good hosts!

Folks, the "tolerant" liberals are not here to teach us love and tolerance for each other. They are here to remake the Church into their own image and to destroy by any means those who oppose them. They are fascists of the worst kind who will stop at nothing until they have destroyed all dissent by force if necessary.

The inquisition lives, but it is not the one the modernists condemn. The inquisition today is operated and wielded by the modernists in precisely the manner it was once misused by others.

Anybody who's bothered to consider the Midrash or Talmud (as Jesus did) undestands that the crime of Sodom was their violation of Hach Nasat. There is no English equivalent of that term, because the Anglo-Saxons lack the concept. "Hospitality" barely scratches the surface.

The Lord's Holy People were nomads, "strangers in a strange land." For a nomad, a denial of "hospitality" is the worst crime imaginable. Amalek must be destroyed because it preyed on refugeees. And intermarriage with Ammonites and Moabites is forbidden because they denied hospitality to the Jews. Jesus himself said: "Become sojourners." God favored Abel over Cain precisely because Abel was a nomad (shepherd), and Cain was a sedentary (farmer), despite Cain's birth-right as first-born.

It was not the particular manner of violation (anal sex) which led to the destruction of Sodom, but rather the violation of Hch Nasat itself.

But I guess I should realize that bigoted homophobes would never see that, because they are generally anti-semitic as well, and eschew any reference to the pre-Christian Jewish tradition. It doesn't matter that Jesus and all his disciples were Jewish, and jesus himself relied completely on that tradtions. Bigots will always mis-read texts to support their bigotry.

Pax Christi is too kind. You people are pathetic. Come out of the cloest and give us all a break. Jesus will love you for acknowledging the truth.

Not sure how you got from my posting that I was some how supportive of homosexuality but I assume that if you have a ministry to cure homosexuality we agree that it is morally wrong.

With 95% of the children being abused by priests being post puberty boys - it is no wonder that so many of our priest are uncomfortable with the church reaffirming that homosexuality is wrong. (See USA Today's website for statistical proof)

Maybe you can focus your ministry on those priests currently affected by same sex attraction - it would be a great blessing to us all.

I said that my ministry specializes in curing homophobia. I understand that people who fear and attack homosexuals are really fighting an internal struggle against their own homosexual desire, and lapse into anti-gay bigotry as a result.

I understand that your repressed homosexual desire led you to read it the other way around. You are seriously in denial, Brother Tim. Take another look at my prior post, and your eyes may be opened.

Homosexuality is not something you need to hide, or apologize for. It is not a sin. But repressing the truth within yourself, and lashing out at innocents who have acknowledged that truth, is indeed sinful.

My ministry can cure you of your anti-gay bigotry. The Lord works miracles. All you need do is believe in yourself, and in the Lord.

Please leave the Church. Start your own. They don't belong in the Roman Catholic Church. I pray for these phoneys who should not have joined the Church in the first place. How did they get in with ideas like that.

No my friend - I didn't misunderstand you in either of my posts - your agenda is clear "I don't like the rules because they make me feel bad". Too bad - your support of homosexuality is a sin regardless of how you want to try to twist what Jesus and his Church teaches. You can try to bait me with your posts and distract the conversation but really the issue is your support of same sex attraction as an acceptable way of life and that somehow "Jesus would be fine with this..." Not!

To all of you who have been confused into believing that acting on same sex attractions is fine seek help, become celibate, go to confession, and pray, pray, pray. I will pray for you all.

In closing - I am not saying that I am not without my sins but I do not look to place blame on anyone by myself for when I fail. I fully accept the long standing teaching of the Catholic church as true and given to us from Christ himself.

"Despite the growing media consensus that Catholicism causes sodomy, an alternative view -- adopted by the Boy Scouts -- is that sodomites cause sodomy."
Ann Coulter
www.townhall.com/columnists/anncoulter/ac20020321.shtml

and which of us on this list have given all our wealth to the poor in order to follow the way of Jesus? If what we do to the least of our brothers we do to him, we still justify so much violence against the creation and life? Yes, Jesus had a rightous anger in the temple and threw out the capitalists, but he didn't excommunicate them. Where do we think people will go? That they will just disapear?

It was the pharisees that were so often angry because Jesus didn't follow the letters of the law. They were entrenched in dogma, and couldn't see the forest for the trees.

The Church teaches that homosexuality is an intrinsic disorder and it's acts a grave evil. A person can have no more compassion for a person engaged in this "grave evil" and depravity than to teach them this truth. For silence in the face of evil only begets more evil. If it is not a sin in the eyes of God for men to commit acts of sodomy on each other, than Christianity itself is but a farce and not to be trusted or taken seriously on any detail of faith or morals.

Max, maybe the Church is wrong. it's been wrong before. think beyond the dogma, what are the substantive issues aside from black and white views of this is 'wrong' and this is 'right'.

the popes and other hierarchy have supported some very bad things in the past, if the church, meaning the people, supported them whole heartedly, things would have been much worse. case in point is archbishop romero. maybe your views on him differ, but my point is that the catholic church is more than a set of handed down dogmatic rules. we are a live body of people that look to the works of christ and others, including the saints and people around us for inspiration in living good lives.

pax

Hey, Max, Maybe the Church is right. We know, or should know that the Church's teachings against homosexuality are consistent with scripture. See Romans 1:24-32, Leviticus 20:13, Leviticus 18:22-23. Of course, given the ability of those proud of their sexual orientation to rationalize and ignore facts they don't like, and their bigotry toward those who disagree, I have no doubt you will explain why the Bible's teachings do not really mean what the words actually say much like the Supreme Court was able to find abortion in the Constitution.

The priests represented in this letter are a sorry lot. No use to say why - they are too lost. Their idea of human dignity is like rubbing someone's face in s^%t and telling them it's strawberry jam all in the name of "pastoral care" and being "welcoming" (these words have come to nauseate me). Like Judas, perhaps it would be better if they had never been born. Unfortunately, they will probably find out the hard way, by being thrown into the pit of fire.

"Max, maybe the Church is wrong. it's been wrong before. think beyond the dogma, what are the substantive issues aside from black and white views of this is 'wrong' and this is 'right'."

If it is "wrong" than Christ was a liar for that would mean the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Chruch. Are you now saying that in matters of faith and morals the Chruch has been wrong before?! And what is this "think beyond dogma" nonsense? The secular world and pop Hollywood culture attempt to twist with satanic glee "dogma" into a "four letter word" and all too many Catholics are all to eager and ready to march under their banner against the Chruch of Rome?! Dogma is nothing other than "a belief or set of beliefs that a political, philosophical, or moral group holds to be true." (World English Dictionary)
Are you actually saying 'We need to look beyond those beliefs we hold to be true.'? What madness is this? And is it not the "dogma" of some (very twisted and depraved) people here that penetrating the human waste tract for sexual gratification is somehow a good and holy thing? Why then do you not encourage them to revisit their rather goofy, utterly stupid, and completely untenable "dogma"?

I got into the Church by the traditional means -- by Baptism and Confirmation.

And subscribing to the belief that Jesus loves homosexuals, and homophobes are repressed homosexuals in need of a spiritual cure for their bigotry, is not an excommunicatible offense.

We are allowed to disagree with you, Brother Ken. And we do. Unless and until an infallible statement is made on the subject, it's an open question.

In the mean time, I'll pray for you. Come out of the closet, Ken Ruddy! Learn to love yourself and your gay brothers. Learn how to truly love the Lord.

The Inquisition was a good idea, Max? What about the genocides on the native people of this continent- in the name of 'God'? So much for loving your enemy. I guess you can kill them as long as you love them while you're doing it.

The beauty of natural law is that my children and children's children won't have to deal too much more with this aberration. With the average life expectancy of a sodomite pervert being less than 50, and with no way to reproduce (other than preying upon pre-teen and teenage boys as we have seen from the sex abuse scandals in the U.S. Church's pervert ring supported by many priests and bishops), they will all be gone a couple of decades from now. The beauty of natural law... Yes, I know. Natural law is a "code" word for "hate." A blessed solemnity of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God to you all.

When, in anything I posted, did I comment in any way on the Inquisition? And who said anything about killing? More red herrings by people who has taken such a leave of their collective senses that they can actually equate being a Native American with two men commmiting acts of sodomy on each other. And I certainly hope that "pax christi" has never spoken out againt pederasty or Nazism or the KKK because that would only mean, according to his inane psychobabble, that he is a pederastophobe, Naziophobe, and/or a Klukluxklanophobe and thus a pederast, nazi and member of the KKK. And of course no one has even attemted to deny (because if they did they would either demonstrate gross ignorance or patent dishonesty) that well over 90% of the cases of abuse were acts of homosexual sodomy commited by sodomites ("homosexuals") on young boys.

Those are examples of violent and abusive language by the hierarchy? They sounded pretty tame to me.

Look at the facts:
Jesus was a real sensitive guy.
The 12 people closest to Jesus were men.
At 32 he had never married.
He had a fag hag: Mary Magdalene.
Jesus was a sodomite! And got off on meeting late in the garden to get it on with the guys!!

Wow group sex too!!!

Sooo folks...get off your bible butts and face the music - Jesus was as gay as a jaybird, and the Catholics (and most Christians) are either not aware or just not wanting you to know that!!!

Has the Pope croaked yet????

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