In order to insulate the "Holy Name 6" legally, I hope none of them will be present at the vigil. They cannot place themselves in any further risk until after either the charges are dropped or the case works its' way through the courts.

Not to worry - the defense/support team is aware of this concern.

I have been to every anti-war protest for this war. I was one of those protesting before the war and getting signatures for the (doomed) Iraq peace pledge before the war. I was one of those who marched on Lake Shore Drive and was illegally detained on Chicago avenue by the CPD five years ago. I was also protesting the Gulf war 17 years ago. All along I have been involved in the Labor Movement. With my years of activist experience, I have to say that this is the worst idea for a protest any of us has ever conceived; at least that I can remember. This action makes it even easier for the media to marginalize us. There are numerous local Catholic groups who show up at protests, and this action will cause some to abandon the movement as it makes it seem like the larger movement is anti-Catholic. It makes us look wild, thoughtless and stupid. It turns off the masses, which we will need to really ever create change. And the timing could have not been worse! Did anyone at all, for a second, think about the fact that Easter is the holiest day in the Catholic calendar? No, it is not Christmas, that day is just the most commercialized. This act on this day is very offensive. Also, why Catholics? Why not some foaming at the mouth evangelical preacher like Pat Robertson and his sheep? There are millions of them who still love Bush and love the war. This Pope is against the war, the last Pope was against the war (and he admonished Bush to his face about it even when Kerry would not), and most Catholics are against the war. Even if, as some are saying, George is not standing against the war, you have to consider the rest of the parish in attendance. Some of you have excused this, stating that the parishioners are all rich anyhow, which is only partly true. Many come from other neighborhoods to the cathedral on holy days. Many of them are rich, but against the war. Despite that, this could have been staged in a number of other places where George comes or goes. Finally, don't stop to justify everything single thing that fellow activists do. We do have to stick together, but realize that not all protest/civil disobedience ideas are wonderful. Some ideas are just stupid, and this is a perfect example. None of us is flawless and not all of us deserve to be protected from the consequences of bad decisions. Just accept the fact that this was a bad idea, and that now those involved have to deal with the fallout.

No sale, tipscommissar. A number of antiwar activists who support these kids can match or exceed your antiwar credentials -- including some who actually helped organize the marches you participated in - including those against the first Gulf war.

That the antiwar movement has made mistakes is certainly not disputable -- indeed the list is long and distinguished. But this was not one of them -- despite the fact that it exceeds your personal political comfort zone. No doubt other direct actions around the country aimed at demanding accountability from war profiteers, politicians, military recruiting centers, religious figures and media pundits may leave you feeling just as discomforted.

Ironically, you were asked in an earlier comment post if you had taken the time to talk with Catholic peace activists about their response to this action. You have yet to reply. But at least one veteran activist from the Catholic Worker movement has, in an open letter published on this and other websites and circulated nationally. More are on route. I suggest you take the time now and read them before purporting to speak for that sector of the movement.

Still, 'tips' has a point, several in fact.

It seems now most of you are in pretty much of a defensive, 'damage control' mode. Am I wrong? Is this where you wanted to be?

I gave my support to it, despite knowing it would have mixed results.

But the real proof of the pudding is in the eating. Is the antiwar movement in Chicago now stronger, better organized, more united, and have more friends and influence as a consequence of this action or not?

Do an honest sum-up in a few weeks that involves everyone from CIMC to Dan Daley at Call to Action, and let us know.

Actually, this has galvanized support particuarly among religious peace activists. However, the overall impact remains to be seen. This is far from over.

Speaking of damage control and the antiwar movement, how are things with Progressives for Obama, your new project? Naomi Klein and Jeremy Scahill's latest broadside in the Nation arguing that progressives jumping on the Obama bandwagon are making a serious strategic mistake seems to have stirred up a hornet's nest.

Carl,
Since you no longer live in Chicago I have no clue why you feel obligated (other than ego) to continue to comment on IndyMedia and local listserves. Hasn't it sunk in that nobody other than M. Katz and a handful of others care what you think?

"Did anyone at all, for a second, think about the fact that Easter is the holiest day in the Catholic calendar?"

Interesting question. Wonder if those volunteers of the Irish Republican Brotherhood and the Irish Citizen Army who launched the Easter Uprising of 1916 were aware of that fact? Of course, they were roundly condemned by the Irish Church hierarchy at the time for just that. Ironic, ain't it?

tips, thank you for the words. I think it's great the discussion this action has triggered. We should never stop discussing what is good strategy for our movement.

That being said, as a lifelong Catholic and someone who considers myself an activist, I would have to say that this action was wholly appropriate, even if not consisting of a completely refined message (but what action does?). Easter is certainly the most holy day in the Catholic calendar and so it is all the more appropriate for people of conscience to stand up and speak the truth about the sinful nature of our occupation of Iraq. Since the Cardinal isn't talking about it, I am glad that somebody did. It is a betrayal of Christian values to celebrate the risen Christ by words alone while our tax dollars go into this murderous war machine. Jesus was the Prince of Peace and it is utter hypocrisy to jail people for demanding justice for the unheard voices of the Iraqi people in a church of all places! If we cannot call for peace in the house of peace, then where does that leave us? If anything, these six were celebrating the Easter holiday in one of the most appropriate ways possible.

Public opinion of the actions is another question, and I am glad that we are taking the time to analyze that. Does this make us a stronger movement? Does this make us a weaker movement? Will Catholics stop supporting the anti-war movement now? Will Catholics begin to question their place in the church? What ultimate effect does this action have? I think we should see, but I do not think that immediate reactions should be the ultimate indicator for a successful action.

i think there are two issues at play here.

1. whether or not activists agree with the action that was carried out at Holy Name.

2.Regardless of what people feel about the action, should we sit back and watch as 6 young people who acted NONVIOLENTLY to oppose war in a way they thought acceptable potentially go to jail for 2-5 years?

Clearly, even if activists oppose the action on strategic or religious grounds, we should apply what pressure we can to keep them from receiving an overly harsh punishment from the state.

Just a thought, if the "Holy Name 6", or any other activist is so dedicated to their cause, they would/should do what they perceive as whatever is necessary to get their point across, right? It was worth it, right? So why take action, and then not be able to stand proudly and say "Yes, I did it."? NOW, you want the charges dropped? I don't understand. Whether it was a teaspoon or a gallon, the fake blood damaged the carpet. Whether the cost to clean it is $30 or $3000, take responsibility for your actions. If you take a closer look, the time and money that is going to be spent on both prosecuting the individuals, and the money they are going to spend on their defense is all money going into the "system" that so many on this blog are against. Maybe the calls for "complete" non-violent protests are right. The 6 individuals, in my opinion, would have made just as much of an impact but standing and stating their case in the middle of Mass. But the argument now is not about whether or not what they did was morally correct, it is now considered a criminal case. Take responsibility.

it's also about the facts. Not just the Tribune's distorted account or allegations, but what actually happened and the real material consequences. Minus those distortions. The state has yet to prove a case for felony criminal property destruction.

JW,

As far as the six hipsters is concerned... "don't start what you can't finish".

I understand that. So what it might boil down to is the depth and amount of the damage. But still, why lobby for the charges to be dropped? I am not a lawyer, but can they plead no contest? The videotapes of the incident will show without a shadow of a doubt that the act was committed, and hopefully an impartial judge will have the common sense to assess the damage fairly. I know, you can argue that the court system is not fair, the police/government is corrupt, but that still does not excuse a person/individual from accepting responsibility for what they've done. Also, I'm sure some/a lot of the reporting of the incident in all media is distorted, but when it comes down to it, if the individuals were to offer to pay for the damage, I would like to think that the offer would be accepted. Sometimes "criminal" acts are prosecuted by the state, not the "victim", in this case the church. Does the church even have a say as to whether or not the charges could be dropped? Maybe I am naive to continue to think that if you can't admit/accept responsibility for something that you've done, you shouldn't have done it. I have done things in my life that I am not exactly proud of in hindsight, but I can't remember a time when I didn't stand my ground and accept responsibility for the things I did, which has resulted in me losing jobs, friends, money and opportunities. We all have lessons to learn, and for better or worse, the time has come for the Holy Name 6.

What is taking responsibility? Do they have an option to pay for the carpet and have the case dropped? It seems that it would be ideal to see the property damage resolved between the Archdiocese and the individuals, leaving the state out of it, if that is an option.

My sentiments exactly, if that is an option. But if every time a "criminal" act if committed, and restitution is made, should charges be dropped? I know I'm comparing apples and oranges here, but if I a rob a bank, simply by going in yelling and scaring people, no weapon involved, but am caught and give all the money back why should I be charged with a crime? Laws are writte to be a deterrent, and if they are broken, there are consequences. If these 6 individuals are/were smart, they should have looked into what is and is not legal. Maybe it's my overactive eye for detail, but in one photo it looks to me like a couple of the girls were trying to wipe up some of the "fake" blood off of the carpet. No law against spraying yourself with fake blood. And if that is the case, then yes, they are guilty of damaging property. Another wild comparison, I mark on the side of your house with a small black marker, while someone else uses a can of spray paint. Who is more guilty? If we're both caught we're both guilty. But neither of us shouldn't have been marking on your house anyway.

don't you think that if that were an option this would be over and done with right now? and carl,

a)you didn't support this, you shit on it the minute it happened

b)none of us care what you think

c)we don't all follow your organizing paradigm, so "making friends" isn't necessarily the goal of this action, i can say that this has gotten more press throughout the country than any of the marches you've organized. it's not shocking now that you're saying that you supported now that it's gotten this kind of coverage, since that's exactly what you did on the LSD takeover and the anarchists taking the streets on the 2nd (or 3rd?) anniversary. anything that's successful will get bad coverage from state-controlled media, which is exactly what we're dealing with here. but i think that this action has brought the war home in terms of discourse and confrontation with power, which i think is better than what most marches and even da has done in the past two years at least.

For someone who doesn't care what I think, '@', you've certainly got a few things to say about it, LOL

My quarrel at the start was with Bob Schwartz referring to the Cardinal as 'Boy Georgie,' a term likely to be perceiving as an anti-Catholic insult. I said the action was OK, but likely to produce mixed results. Go back and read it if you like. I posted a supportive piece to the religion writer at the Trib, but who knows what she did with it. As for the LSD event, I have know idea what you're talking about, since I supported and took part in the whole thing, but managed not to get caught up in the bust at the end, as did most others.

But one of these days, hopefully not too far away, you'll lighten up on your street fixation and the notion that you have to take on all your adversaries at once, and start to learn to think politically and strategically. Then, if there's some poetic justice in the universe, your little brother will get in your face about what a right wing creep you are, LOL!!!

Carl wrote: "for the LSD event, I have know idea what you're talking about"

Actually, Carl, you do know what's being talked about, so please don't evade it. For the response to the 2003 Iraq invasion, in place of the Fed Plaza demo and subsequent LSD march, you promoted an alternative event for the same time -- gathering at 1st Methodist Temple. The next day, Katz, et al. presumed to negotiate on our behalf with the City re: the next day's follow up demo. Don't re-write history. Many of us who organized both the 1st night's and 2nd night's events were not pleased with Katz's and your activities, esp as we spent the intervening time in jail.

That's just crap. You're fighting straw men here, probably because you don't want to deal with realities. Our indoor event back then dovetailed the rally and march to LSD, and supported it. How else did I take part in the whole thing, as well as many of our activists, too? Just go back to the record on our listserve and web site, and see for yourself. It's all there. We have real differences over real things; argue about them, but don't make stuff up.

Has anyone of you that have been posting negative comments considered the possibility that the "release" of the stage blood was accidental? My guess from watching the video is that the HN6 had only planned for the "blood" to end up on themselves but when ushers/security started grabbing them that the "blood" packets began to squirt! I do not for a second believe the "blood" was thrown or squirted on anyone else intentionally!!

touche and great point!!

Here's another point the sanctimoniuos hypocritical Catholic/Christians seem to forget. Didn't their man/god do a violent act in the temple? Didn't he strike a blow for the common man by throwing the moneychangers and their usurious rates out physically? The hard core Catholics know the Vatican didn't allow interest on money until the late 1880's. That act sure seemed to have an effect.

Something I haven't seen on this discussion.

Time to throw the moneychangers out again, with the warmongers. I stand with the HN6.

For those collecting the bail money, why not send it to the iraq people who were hurt by the us war? don't they need it more than the 6? I mean, some people have talked about the need to being the pain home right? So, it is a way for us to take some of the pain and help the people of iraq.

Jones. Why not lead by setting an example and send a chunk of your next paycheck to Basra for humanitarian relief? You can contact any number of Iraqi relief projects - I'm sure they would be glad to help.

Right now the best aid we can give the Iraqi people is to get US troops the hell out of there. Want a four point withdrawal plan? Here's one. Ships and planes. Out. Now.

Davidson is a tool for the ruling class in his promotion of the O'Bomb Them campaign (the reactionary Obama trotted out there to mislead and misdirect the people into supporting imperialism). He is an enemy of the anti-war movement. What his hero OBama, the racist reactionary wants is to better wage the "war on terrorism" which is a war against the people of the world. DEFEAT O'BAMA NOW!

News video from the vigil
chicago.indymedia.org/media/all/display/29201/index.php