here's the poster for teh aug. 23 action. print it out, make lots of copies.

Last I was told trespassing of any kind on private property is illegal. It IS illegal, at least in this state, to block clinics. You have every right to walk into a clinic freely. You have your rights. Roe V. will not be overturned. Why the uproar?

Tara,

Why so complacent? Roberts isn't exactly "liberal". What will you do if it is overturned?

Ted: I'm not complacent at all! First, it will not be overturned, that is just too unlikely, unfortunately. Second, what will I do? celebrate and keep doing what I'm doing: fighting for the unborn. I'm a mother and against abortion.

I guess it was presumptuous to say you are complacent. However, I'm curious. Are you pro-life as an individual making individual choices about your body? Or are you connected to the fascists who want to restrict choice and endanger the lives and rights of women aside from yourself?

Let's get this straight, Tara. Beyond the choices you exercise for yourself - you appear to be motiviated by your personal religious convictions to sally forth and declare your support for restrictive efforts to impose yout anti-abortion views on other women. Have you found - like Oral Roberts - your own 80 foot vision of a personal savior who commands you to go out and admonish the unbelievers, while basking in the arcane delusion that the Chief Enchilda in the Sky is on your side?

What?! I didn't mention anything about "personal religious convictions." Yes, I am pro-life. I am also against stem-cell research. Ted, to answer your question, of course I can only make decisions regarding my one body. I do not force my opinion on anyone. I am not fascist in the least. I am an active anti- war and animal rights activist within the Chicago community. I do not want to endager the lives of anyone. On the contrary, I want to show women that they do have a choice other than abortion. Abortion is very dangerous. Pregnancy is not all fun either(I'm speaking from experience). There are alot of women and actually very young girls going into these clinics to get abortions. I just try to offer information on the unborn so they can decide for themselves. The abortionists don't care about the women and girls health. They only care about $$$$. Unplanned pregnancies buy his Lexus and house in the Northwest suburbs. This is the reality of the abortion business.

One more thing: If we want the future generation to make this world better and make positive change, they need to be here to do it! We can't kill off our own future generations. Think about it.

Tara,

Thanks for responding. I too am an animal rights and anti-war activist in Chicago. But, and I guess this where we agree to disagree, I feel that until the fetus is born, it's the woman's body and the woman's choice. I also agree that information should be made available to women on both sides. However, programs that are heavily government funded, things like abstinence only education, tend to be one sided, full of myths, and it can be argued, actually end up getting more young women pregnant.

"I just try to offer information on the unborn so they can decide for themselves. The abortionists don't care about the women and girls health."

How do you offer the information? And what information are you offering? To say that "abortionists" (a seemingly derogatory term) don't care about the women and their health is, in my opinion (everyone's got one), disingenuous.

“They only care about $$$$. Unplanned pregnancies buy his Lexus and house in the Northwest suburbs. This is the reality of the abortion business.”

So you would rather remove the option to have an abortion completely because you seem to think that some doctor in the suburbs is getting rich off of women’s, in your book, wrong or poor choices?

What about all the business that are specifically for new mothers? I mean hell the diaper industry alone is making millions I would assume. Capitalism is bad. And people do make money off of others. But the $$ argument is a weak in my book. It can go both ways.

“I do not want to endanger the lives of anyone.”

I don’t either. But removing the option, assuming this is your feeling, could cause equal or greater suffering, especially to mothers who are not ready to be mothers and babies who have irresponsible mothers, or to women who don’t want to be mothers and attempt unsafe procedures where their life could become endangered.

Please don't feed the trolls, people.

This is a progressive community. People like Tara, who are anti-choice and in favor of restricting women's rights, do not belong on this board and should not be enouraged.

Tara, you've apparently exercised your right to choose, by having kids. That's fine. And the medical/ethical issues involved with of abortion are something every woman who is faced with a unwanted pregnancy has to confront. The point - which you seemingly miss -- is that they have the right to choose a course of action for themselves, and not have it dictated by others - like you - who seek to impose their own standards of morality on other women. .

Time for a little moral clarity, Tara.

I say let God be the judge.

If you don't beleive there is a god, I guess that makes it all the easier for ya....

I say let God be the judge.

If you don't beleive there is a god, I guess that makes it all the easier for ya....

pro-choice,

Regarding your comment:

"This is a progressive community. People like Tara, who are anti-choice and in favor of restricting women's rights, do not belong on this board and should not be enouraged."

Are the best interests of this "progressive community" served by stifling open-minded dialogue?

So it's okay to say that slavery is a good thing? How about saying that gays shouldn't have the right to sleep with each other?

Those things wouldn't be tolerated here on Indymedia, nor should they be.

I find it amazing (and utterly sad) that people here are so quick to defend those who would like to see women be oppressed (and yes, that's what it is when women don't have the right to control their own bodies).

I'm sorry, but this is not an abstract debate about free speech. It is about letting someone who wants to restrict the rights of women to control their own bodies to spew their rubbish on Indymedia.

I wouldn't want someone who's racist or homophobic posting here--why is it okay for someone who's advocating the restriction of women's rights??? How low are our goal posts as the left that we can't even call this bullshit out for what it is and tell these people to fuck off?

pro-choice,

Regarding your comment:

"I wouldn't want someone who's racist or homophobic posting here--why is it okay for someone who's advocating the restriction of women's rights??? How low are our goal posts as the left that we can't even call this bullshit out for what it is and tell these people to fuck off?"

Civility, it seems, has gone the way of open-minded dialogue here on Indymedia.

Why must the minions be expected to keep quiet and content themselves with goosestepping down the strasse behind the banner of "Progress"?

"Civility"?

Yes, excuse me for not seeing the necessity of being civil to someone who thinks I shouldn't have the right to control my own body.

That is something that is not, and should not be, up for debate--and I still for the life of me can't figure out why the left seems incapable of grasping that fact.

pro-choice,

You obviously are so blinded by your dogmas, that you fail to understand the core beliefs of people like Tara. She considers a fetus, which grows in your body but has a DIFFERENT DNA, a SEPARATE biological entity. In other words, she considers that existence as a being worthy of human rights. There's no intention whatsoever from her side to "opress" you. It is laughable that you call her a bigot and then - in a blatant display of lack of moral clarity - you lower her to the level of "racists" and "homophobes".

Listen, "pro-choice", we agree on the fact that fetuses aren't humans, thus it is OK to flush them down the toilet. Tara thinks they are human.

Yes, a fetus is a separate entity--once it's born.

While it's housed in MY body, however, it is MY right--and every woman's right for her own pregnancy--to excercise the choice whether or not to carry it to term.

If you don't want an abortion, Kurt, you shouldn't have one. Neither should Tara.

But don't pretend that it's in any way "progressive" to be calling for the restriction of women's right to health care (which is what abortion is).

"Pro-choice",

I am playing devil's advocate here. So how can a fetus, which does NOT SHARE YOUR DNA, be part of YOUR body? It lives in you, but it's NOT you.

pro-choice,

Regarding your comment, "But don't pretend that it's in any way 'progressive' to be calling for the restriction of women's right to health care (which is what abortion is)."

I've never had an abortion myself, but I know many women who have. Their stories are all different, but they all have one thing in common: they hated the experience, and they wish they hadn't done it.

Should we just tell them to shut up and warn them not to rock the boat of Progress?

They were told they wouldn't experience any long-term consequences, but how does that explain their emotional distress? What about their need for "health care" now?

I don't see how the health interests of women are served by refusing to even discuss the possibility that abortion may not be good for them.

The way I offer information is going outside clinics( standing on the public sidewalk) and say" Would you like some info on choices other than abortion?" These choices range from what an ultrasound is, where to get assistance, CareNet in Glenn Ellyn, the developing fetus, adoption, etc. Being a mother, myself, I just can't buy this false notion that you are seperate until the baby is born! Obviously, noone here has completed a pregnancy to term. There is nothing seperate about it. There is DNA, there are 2 heartbeats, You are literally sharing body space for 9 months with a little person. It is legal in this country to haveabortion. I don't try to restrict that at all for women, I just offer information that they will not get once they are inside the clinic. I believe this should be open dialouge and debate. The above ideas pro-coice and kurt have expressed both have validity. I always learn something new on these boards be it "pro-choice or"pro-life" people. Thank you! Tara

Again - I'm baffled by why people who are anti-choice are on this board.

This is not a debate society--it is an on-line community and progressive media outlet dedicated to advancing the grassroots struggle for democracy and our rights.

Kurt, Tara, Cynic and anyone else who's anti-choice should not be on this board.

P.S. - To "Cynic"--I had an abortion and I didn't feel remorse, regret, guilt, etc.--I felt HAPPINESS and RELIEF. I'm glad I did it and I know a lot of women who had abortions who feel the same way I do.

That's part of the problem--the only side we ever hear in the media is that abortion is "bad" "tragic" "depressing" etc.

You know what? It's people with attitudes like yours that try to shame women into feeling guilty about their abortions--instead of seeing it for what it is--a health care and medical procedure that is (in the first trimester) about as invasive as a tonsilectomy.

pro-choice,

I am NOT "anti-choice". I have repeated that a few times in this discussion. I support a woman's right to abort the fetus, just because it makes our legal system less complicated and reduces the power of the state.

Nevertheless, I am convinced that your moral and intellectual arguement for abortion lacks clarity and logic. And on top of that, you are unable to discuss your views. You stick to your shallow dogmas and then you try disqualify to disqualify your rivals by slandering and demonizing them. I am sure that you are one of those uncivilized brutes that tend to shout down people.

To: "pro-choice" How the hell do you define democracy? It is just as much a "right" to choose not to have an abortion than to have one! You liberals like "pro-choice" are the ones that insist everyone believe the same as you(?!) Noone is restricting your rights, either. You had your abortion. Good for you! Stop whining about being repressed. You can go into any abortion mill in this state, up to 9 months along and destroy your child. Enjoy your eguality. Loser.

to pro-choice - the reason people like tara and and other anti-choice people are here is that we have free speech and its a nice thing to have a dialogue with other people.
Yes it is ok to say that slavery is ok and whatever else you choose to SAY. Once you start acting on it, that is where you will face opposition and other things.

It comes down to censorship - the beauty of this board that I hope indymedia will preserve is that it is open and demorcratic. And in a fully free and democratic society we have a right to say what is on our minds as oppose to agree all the time to what the state says.
Not all humans think the same. To hear other arguments as oppose to silencing them helps the left and progressives. Imagine offering a positive argument that convinces Tara and Connie and whoever that hey, women should have a right to choose as it is their bodies.
By just saying shut up to all the opposition you are not really changing people's minds.

And, pro-choice, once speech about such unpopular stuff is censored who is to say that YOUR right to speech is going to be preserved? Who will decide what is the acceptable speech? I reallyl hope its not you.

Well said "a"!!!!

about an actual fetus - outside of the mother it can't survive. It is not a person and it is just a clump of cells. I find it interesting that people who oppse abortions are mostly conservatives but they also oppose any non-profit groups helping with women's health and then they complain about abortion doctors making tons of money!

Well, the clinics are non-existant or underfunded due mostly to the people who are anti-choice and claim to be fiscally conservative. Offering healthcare to poor women or women who need help taking care of the child seems like too unimportant.

I did take an emergency contraseptive once and I feel i did the right thing. Without it there would have been at least three people totally miserable.
I would have no money or health care to take care of the child. The father would have all the burden and I would be a terrible mother. Yeah there are these romantic stories about motherhood, but having parents who barely made enough to survive its not all that its cracked up to be.

There would be very little support for my or my child if I was forced to have it. In the beginning it was just a clump of cells. To say otherwise is unscientific and ridiculous.

I would hope that all the anti-abortion people first think about the consequences of having no acees to safe abortions - more unwanted kids, more kids abused because they were not wanted, more women dying from unsafe abortions, more women needed to rely on the government for food etc...

And what about when you are raped and get pregnant? Do you have any programs in mind that would help women who now have to look at a child as a product of violence? Will you offer any support to them?

Before you tear something down that has such an overwhelming importance, build some resources first. Otherwise, you are just trying to make my choice at life non-important while you exercise yours.

a,

"about an actual fetus - outside of the mother it can't survive"

False. Ever heard of a premature birth? That should pretty much debunk the myth for necessaru late-term abortions. Did you know that there are babies born with 20 weeks gestation that end up being completely healthy adults? Of course, machines are needed to keep them alive at first.

Or are you telling me that you are a Spartan, in other words, humans that don't leave without machines or accessories should perish? Would you euthanize physically disabled people?

I thought the comments on this page were supposed to relate to the protest.

Will any news networks be there on Tuesday?

I thought the comments on this page were supposed to relate to the protest.

Will any news networks be there on Tuesday?

"The way I offer information is going outside clinics( standing on the public sidewalk) and say" Would you like some info on choices other than abortion?" These choices range from what an ultrasound is, where to get assistance, CareNet in Glenn Ellyn, the developing fetus, adoption, etc.... I don't try to restrict that at all for women, I just offer information that they will not get once they are inside the clinic. I believe this should be open dialouge and debate."

Tara,

When a woman enters a clinic, she's made up her mind. She's thought of all her possibilities, in her head, with her partner, family and/or friends. She doesn't need you, a stranger to her lifestyle, telling her how it is. You are not a friend, nor are you a doctor, to tell someone the so called MANY risks involved with abortion would be speculation, not FACT. Women are given the risks involved and offered answers to any questions they have, THEN they have the procedure. Just like you used the pregnancy to term agrument, you never had an abortion, so you wouldn't know how the process goes.

To argue the money issue is invalid because living in a capitalist society, people profit off of people. A surgeon, a family practitioner, a pre-natal care are ALL health care that profit off of people. Until healthcare is free and abortions still cost an arm and a leg (like most healthcare goes), then your argument will be justified.

If I would have saw you the day I had my abortion, my partner would have had to force me off of you as I was beating your head into the ground. I knew my options, I weighed out all the factors, made up my choice and wasn't going to take any heckling. Lucky for you, I didn't go to AAnchor Health Center. Although, I wouldn't mind doing that any day, having an abortion or not.

All the arguments have been debated, can we just call 'WAR' now and end this for good?

"The way I offer information is going outside clinics( standing on the public sidewalk) and say" Would you like some info on choices other than abortion?" These choices range from what an ultrasound is, where to get assistance, CareNet in Glenn Ellyn, the developing fetus, adoption, etc.... I don't try to restrict that at all for women, I just offer information that they will not get once they are inside the clinic. I believe this should be open dialouge and debate."

Tara,

When a woman enters a clinic, she's made up her mind. She's thought of all her possibilities, in her head, with her partner, family and/or friends. She doesn't need you, a stranger to her lifestyle, telling her how it is. You are not a friend, nor are you a doctor, to tell someone the so called MANY risks involved with abortion would be speculation, not FACT. Women are given the risks involved and offered answers to any questions they have, THEN they have the procedure. Just like you used the pregnancy to term agrument, you never had an abortion, so you wouldn't know how the process goes.

To argue the money issue is invalid because living in a capitalist society, people profit off of people. A surgeon, a family practitioner, a pre-natal care are ALL health care that profit off of people. Until healthcare is free and abortions still cost an arm and a leg (like most healthcare goes), then your argument will be justified.

If I would have saw you the day I had my abortion, my partner would have had to force me off of you as I was beating your head into the ground. I knew my options, I weighed out all the factors, made up my choice and wasn't going to take any heckling. Lucky for you, I didn't go to AAnchor Health Center. Although, I wouldn't mind doing that any day, having an abortion or not.

All the arguments have been debated, can we just call 'WAR' now and end this for good?

"I thought the comments on this page were supposed to relate to the protest.

Will any news networks be there on Tuesday?"

Hey Jack,
The question shouldn't be about news networks, it should be:
Are people actually going to show up on Tuesday?

"The way I offer information is going outside clinics( standing on the public sidewalk) and say" Would you like some info on choices other than abortion?" These choices range from what an ultrasound is, where to get assistance, CareNet in Glenn Ellyn, the developing fetus, adoption, etc.... I don't try to restrict that at all for women, I just offer information that they will not get once they are inside the clinic. I believe this should be open dialouge and debate."

Tara,

When a woman enters a clinic, she's made up her mind. She's thought of all her possibilities, in her head, with her partner, family and/or friends. She doesn't need you, a stranger to her lifestyle, telling her how it is. You are not a friend, nor are you a doctor, to tell someone the so called MANY risks involved with abortion would be speculation, not FACT. Women are given the risks involved and offered answers to any questions they have, THEN they have the procedure. Just like you used the pregnancy to term agrument, you never had an abortion, so you wouldn't know how the process goes.

To argue the money issue is invalid because living in a capitalist society, people profit off of people. A surgeon, a family practitioner, a pre-natal care are ALL health care that profit off of people. Until healthcare is free and abortions still cost an arm and a leg (like most healthcare goes), then your argument will be justified.

If I would have saw you the day I had my abortion, my partner would have had to force me off of you as I was beating your head into the ground. I knew my options, I weighed out all the factors, made up my choice and wasn't going to take any heckling. Lucky for you, I didn't go to AAnchor Health Center. Although, I wouldn't mind doing that any day, having an abortion or not.

All the arguments have been debated, can we just call 'WAR' now and end this for good?

aborted fetus,

"If I would have saw you the day I had my abortion, my partner would have had to force me off of you as I was beating your head into the ground."

Hey, that would have been quite a sight. I guess harming humans is your hobby then! Ever considered a career as a hit(wo)man or a mercenary?

To "aborted fetus" "whe a woman enters a clinic she has her mind made up." NOT TRUE! These women and like I said before VERY, VERY young girls are confused and scared. You absolutely cannot speak for everyone. Also, It is my first ammendment right to be there. As far as your violent statement rtegarding "beating my head to the ground." I don't think so! Noone touches me, noone. You wouldn't get within a foot of me honey. If you even tried, you'd deal with me, then my husband, then my lawyer, and it would not be pretty. Obviously you need some serious psychological help, jeezz!

Keep your dam legs closed you filthy whores, then you won't have to worry about your precious abortions!

NARAL is probably one of the few places left in the world where it has not yet been discovered that abortion hurts women. Since most normal people now recognize this rather obvious fact, many of them are already moving on.

Stay extreme so the rest of them will decide to abandon you as well. You are doing great work.

hey kurt,
yes i am aware of pre-mature births. Thats after 20 weeks. thats about 5 months. I hate to inform you of this but I don't know of any woman who will jump up and down for joys as she skips to the abortion clinic singing "Yey me I am getting an abortion today and i have carried for over 4 months!".

If the baby endangers the life of a mother, the mother has the right to abort the baby. What makes it so much more special than a woman's life who might have a family or other things she is taking care of?

Second, lets say in my religion it is un-ethical to remove tumors. You Kurt have a tumor and want it removed. But because my religion forbids it, I have tons of money and bought a lot of politicians, I get to make the rules. I make laws to make sure that the operation to get the tumor removed is as hard as possible to get.
Guess what Kurt, you get to either die or go into the back alley and hope that the guy there knows what he is doing with his rusty instruments.

Yes I know a baby/fetus is not a tumor blah blah blah. I just want males and others on this thread to realize that abortion is a personal choice. Sometimes it is a matter of life and death. And yo might not have all the answers.

Woman have abortions because they are desperate. I took emergency contraseptives because I was desperate - and you know what, Planned parenthood wanted to tell me all kinds of ways to have safe sex so that I wouldn't need their services again ( so far for the money grubbing abortionists).

I took a mental poll and realized that all these people I know had kids who were totally unplanned.
They are all democrats or progressives or whatever. So the myth that as soon as you feel bad about your pregnancy you will rush off to have an abortion is a myth. People have unwanted kids all the time. They include me. (if i was aborted i wouldn't have know about it so doesn't make me upset at the least)
So abortions are emergencies. Please don't fuck that up. Alternatives to abortions are fine as long as they don't entrap women and force them to make a choice that sometimes in this society it has to be economic one (that bush for me kurt).

I also noticed that the anti-abortionists haven't addressed rape or incest (there might be a reason why those girls are young).
And a fifteen year old with a kid is not as romantic as it sounds.

a,

I am going to repeat it again... I am actually in favor of abortions... but I like to play devil's advocate in order to get other perspectives on this subject.

hey and i answered. ok so maybe using you as an example was bad.

I wonder if a lot of people will show up.
Or if it will be mostly limited to profesional protestors, paper hawkers and amused office workers on lunch break.
why federal plaza? Not everyone works down town!