i'll tell you what.

we get your low estimates, we get the statue, and you get mayor daley.

he's our landmark, his name is on everything in town and embossed backwards on all the cops nightsticks.

after this happens.. you'll understand why we're the second city..

thanks for the challenge..

YOU'RE ON!!

good retort up there---- sad but true.

All this Chicago vs NY crap is petty bullshit anyway. We should all be working together and supporting each other, not turning antiwar demos into some fucking competition. If that's really your attitude (I'm addressing the NY person here), it just shows how trifling you are. Why not direct your sneers towards the warmongering Bush administration rather than your fellow activists?

OK, I'm down with the whole 'it's all good' thing and that we should be working together and all (and of course we do), but -- New York you are on. Cough up some equitable challenge numbers, gadboy, and we will so go toe to toe. I'd like to point out for the record that, in the interest of fairness, no 'challenge' number should be constructed without taking into account the weighted population numbers of our respective cities. Fair is fair. Furthermore, it should be noted that NYC has coughed up its biggest numbers for what were, in effect, NATIONAL mobilizations, which is simply more of the usual bicoastal privilaging.

You win and you get to perpetuate your unfortunate 'first city' syndrome, a regrettable manifestation of a hopeless attachment to the inequities of heirarchy. We win and you take Daley AND his entire family, preferably on a skewer. We'll deal with the aldermen ourselves...

Ok, okay. Texas will partake in the challenge, only if we can combine all our cities. We'll give NYC the Alamo and Chi-town Nasa. Is that cool?

oh yes, and texxxas will provide the 'winner' with other sorts of goodies too, like heaps of racist republicans and democrats.

Sausage town? I think not. This is PIEROGI town, through and through, despite the welcome proliferation of greens, pasteles, falafal, garlic noodles, gyros and salsa negro in recent decades. The Germans were at best an annoying Teutonic gaggle in the Missouri Synod by 50 years ago -- except for that fucking Nazi bastard Mauer in the CPD, and he's a token anyway, since the right-wing Irish-American crackers still call the real shots amongst the coppers' top brass, despite Hillard's token presence. Hey progressive, southside Irish, when are you going to wake up and kick those grifting bastards out, anyway? They think the IRA -- real, provo or otherwise -- stands for "I Rule All", with the "I" a stand-in for idiot Daley.

Throw down, New York. We're waiting. And TeHAS, you will be mopped, unless, of course, you bring in the entire occupied nation of Mexico, in which case we could be in trouble...

Ah, lingering nationalism. It's stupid, but amusing.

What "Statue of Liberty?" After Kennedy we put a chain of bowling balls on it and called it "Our Lady of the Harbor."
Now we have to keep it closed because them damn A-Rabs aint got no respect for our Christian religion.

I think Daley and I kinda cancel out each other. We'll even throw in Bloomberg.

hah! I say we go percentages wise, nyc-er throw down to that. As to Texas, you've lost already and for that you have to take back your shrump in the white house!

I am Irish-American, and I object to your stereotyping of Irish-Americans. I dunno, maybe you haven't been to enough protests where there are Irish-Americans who are quite visible. You're forgetting about all of the Catholics - a disproportionate number of them Irish - who are committing civil disobedience in the name of peace. We're angry, passionate people who are extremely outspoken on whatever stances we take. You do not want to piss us off.

I'm really sick of this pick-on-the-ethnics classist bullshit. You have no idea how alienating it is to hear this ignorant bullshit. Daley's people came over - what? - six generations ago? My grandparents are from Ireland - they don't identify with Daley and his cronies at all. A lot of Irish people are stuck in the working-class to this day. There are a whole lot of middle-class people who love the fact that cops are in the line of danger doing what they would love to do themselves if they weren't so self-conscious about getting their hands dirty.

I grew up in a mixed-ethnic working-class community, but I went to an elite, WASPy university on the north shore (guess which one). Do you realize that these nice, enlightened middle-class liberals say racist shit all of the time, are nasty class bigots, and are anti-Semites who bar Jewish women from their sororities? That their fraternities hold parties in blackface?

Racism is everywhere. I've encountered plenty of NIMBY racism on the north side. I do wish that certain people would stop projecting it onto others.

And New Yorkers, if you weren't such snobs, you would realize that we have plenty of culture & landmarks, starting with our architecture. You can keep your tacky overgrown hood ornament as far as I'm concerned. Y'all do need to stop being so snobbish and give a shit about the majority of the country that doesn't live in your city. That's part of the reason we're in this mess in the first place.

And another thing, "Not So Fast" - you don't know your history. Do you see the Haymarket Memorial on the front page of Chicago Indymedia? Do you even recognize it? Don't you know that the leftist labor movements of the late nineteenth-century were led by German immigrants? They were the most radical people in this town at that time. No you don't know your labor history at all, which is fairly typical of a spoiled, uncommitted protester. Swallow your ego, study your history and quit stereotyping. Germans died for the 8-hour-day. But maybe you don't work one of those jobs, so you don't have to feel grateful.

And I'll point out that the Polish and the Italians have sausage as well. Please stop appointing yourself the spokesperson for all of us and make an effort to really get to know the ethnic communities, because the ethnic communities are much less likely to be jingoists and immigrant-bashers, having ties to the old countries as they do.

the guys were trying to have fun... quit taking it all so seriously.

i don't think anyone was serious when this started.

get a valium

Yes yes all very nice but all I hear is talk. If your going to beat use you'll have to stop painting on cows or what ever it is your doing right now and start getting people out. As for the southreners if you could some how find bush's brain some where on the plains of texas and return it too him, we New yourkers might part with, woody allan. Yeah that will be and even trade n'es pas.
tah until later. DaXv

What are you doing on the Internet at 10:40 am on March 27th? Weren't there supposed to be HUGE actions in NYC today? Weren't you all supposed to be "stopping" the city? As far as I know that shit is going down as I type this. Don't you have better things to do-- protesting, jail solidarity, etc? If you're such a hardcore activist then why aren't you out on the streets, instead of being an asshole on the Indymedia? Hmmm?

OK, I'm thinking some folks on this thread lose sight of two concepts: irony and sarcasm.

And specifically to our exercised Irish American brother/sister. As the granddaughter of immigrants from four different ethnic groups, it bears pointing out that under da mare's watch much of Chicago's old (white) immigrant communities have been pretty solidly eviscerated. Instead we have a row of trendy suburban-populated nightclubs and a couple of columns in Greektown; a concrete architectural atrocity called UIC which was constructed on paved over homes of Italian immigrants in the name of urban 'renewal'; a "German Town" that is increasingly colonized by isolationist yuppies; and a city administration that openly touts its Irish heritage at the same time it has steadfastly refused to install a monument to the German anarchist martyrs who were massacred by our city's finest and their political stooges.

Folks from other ethnic groups would be less cranky about the whole Irish thing if the city's Irish Americans actually heeded the words of Irish patriots like Bernadette Devlin McAlisky (deported from Chicago's O'Hare airport last month for being a 'national security threat) when they exhort Irish Americans to stand up against racism and imperialist oppression. Thankfully, many local Irish Americans do. More should. I certainly didn't see any sweeping expression of outrage over Devlin's deportation at this month's downtown St. Patricks' Day parade.

We have a lot of work to do within all of the constituencies that still hold to some sense of identity with their ethnic roots -- including urging people not to continue to fall for the tried and true ruling-class device of 'divide and rule'. Meanwhile, fuck Daley and every moron who remotely identifies with his racist, tokenist, jack-boot pro-corporate regime, including all of the dumb-ass south side Irish who cheer him on as 'their' mayor. The guy is planning on moving to Jefferson Park, for christ's sake. Lots of cops up there, including the top brass, except, of course, for Black cops...

And it would be great if 'Angry Irish' were right about there being less racism in the remnants of Chicago's working class communities, but that's just not so. Been on north Milwaukee Ave. lately, well west of Wicker Park yuppieville? Fortunately, despite the incipient prejudice among a lot of Polish immigrants (I know about this, since they're my relatives), there are vital points of resistance -- including among new Polish youth immigrants who have been vocal regulars at anti-nazi actions in the neighborhood.

Also, as the offspring of three generations of steel workers, I'd appreciate it if people wouldn't assume that just because someone you disagree with posts to this thread they must be some sort of effete, spoiled, upper-middle-class white bread product of Northwestern University. Seems sort of elitist to me to assume that if you can type in English you must be one of 'those' people. Kindly suspend the anti-intellectualism. Us working class folks can parse the fucking language, too.

Meanwhile, New York, where's the numbers throwdown? Still waiting.

You're not Irish, so I suggest you take care of your own people.

I don't care if you are working-class - so am I. My father was a non-union worker in the steel industry - frequently unemployed.

I didn't say that there was less racism in the working-class communities, or that there was no racism. I dunno where you've been, but if you spent time around the UMC college kids, you would know that they subscribe to these stereotypes all the while saying and doing all sorts of nasty things. I don't enjoy being around them and I don't enjoy working with them.

In case you didn't notice, Mayor Daley got elected by huge numbers in all of Chicago. You know jack shit about being Irish and what it means. You don't have to be Irish, or even working-class to be a redneck. Any sentence that starts with "you people need to..." is arrogant, bigoted and self-righteous.

What's next? The Italians and the mafia? Or how 'bout the Polish and their rabid red-baiting?

er, no, Daley was not elected by "huge numbers", since 2/3rds of Chicagoans didn't bother to vote, regognizing that it's virtually impossible to go against Daley's one-party state, no matter how nice a guy Paul Jakes might be. But it sounds like you like daley, my brother, which makes you...a dumb-ass Irish! please stop making the rest of us Irish anti-Daleyites look bad. no posting to this thread unless you support sending the mayor back to county mayo, where his more forward-thinking relatives will deal with him in the old-fashioned way, by burning the bastard in a basket.

when i see things like "dumb ass" and when i see people holding one group to a higher standard than the others, i wonder if someone is trying to boost their own self-satisfaction at the expense of others rather than promote understanding between peoples. are you just looking for someone to feel superior to, because you sound hateful. apparently hoosier has nothing to say about polish politicians like those in Hegewisch and East Side. I don't blame the polish community for them. the rhetoric is self-righteous infoshop 101 and doesn't speak to the people back home at all.

You're wrong. I don't like Daley. And I'm not a "brother". Fact is that Daley was voted for by majorities of all ethnic groups. I'm sorry if that fact is inconvenient for some people's self-indulgent "revolutionary" fantasies. The reason I'm coming down so hard on that rhetoric is that I'll wager I've got a good ten years on the little bigot from Indiana - I know the rhetoric all too well, I used it, and all it did was make me feel satisfied with my own righteousness. Treat people like human beings and try to understand them. When you call people "dumb-asses" and morons, that only tells me that you are doing this to feel superior to someone. Self-indulgent politics have got to go - we need a humanist politics. "Anti-intellectualism" - ha! What a laugh. Try taking your intellectualism in the workforce and seeing how far it gets. It might score points with the bosses but it won't help you take care of your family. Education is only useful if you can avoid turning into one of them, or aiding and abetting them. Don't turn your back on who you are. Right now, you're using their rhetoric - sorry.

Someone tell Hoosier that in her own state, immigrants were harassed and attacked by the KKK. Then maybe she wouldn't use these childish and self-indulgent comparisons to Nazi's.

OK, I'm trying to separate fact from heat here. Angry Irish says he's not a "brother." Last time I checked, that was code language for "Don't imply I might be like Black people." Gad. Angry Irish also admits he used to be one of those 'rhetoric' flinging ultra-left types (I submit he still is, he's just taken off his lefty hat and put on his aggrieved 'worker' hat). Guess that's a solid endorsement for pitching out the baby with the bathwater, suggesting that anyone who sounds too damned militant is...er...too damned militant because -- Angry Irish has learned this from personal experience in some vanguardist outfit and now changed his/her previously mistaken ways. But what I find most striking about this whole thread is that its a 'white' rant (taken over by some pretty humourless types, unfortunately). I suppose it's nice to know that white xenophobia is not just about white bigotry against people of color -- but about whites from any particular group hating everybody else from any other particular group.

How about a little bit of celebration of cultural diversity here, instead of sliding down the slippery slope of cross-ethnic bashing? (Sorry, Angry Irish, but you seem at least as guilty of this as the next person).

EVERYBODY should take a valium. And let's not lose focus. NYC is challenging chicago. We have to save our vitriol for them.

Hey, hey, let's not loose site of our real enemy here: New York City! Oops, I mean the Bush war machine...

For chrissakes, did it ever occur to you that someone might say they're not a "brother" because there is a such thing in the world as "females"? Are you that trigger-happy?

Other than that, I agree with you. And I don't see where I've engaged in cross-ethnic bashing. I'm actually as militant or radical as anyone, I just don't see the point in self-indulgent finger-pointing rhetoric. People loving themselves is much more radical. People who are bigots don't even know their own histories.

OK, in scrolling through this flame war, I am wondering what exactly the beef is? Somebody break it down for me, please, so we can get on with kicking New York's butt.

Total votes for Richie Daley in 1999: 429,746
Total votes for Richie Daley in 2003: 363,553
Change in numbers between 1999 & 2003: -66,193
Percent change in raw vote for Daley: -15%

Total voter turnout in 1999: 597,591
Total voter turnout in 2003: 463,332
Drop in voter turnout in real numbers: 134,259
% drop in voter turnout between 1999 and 2003: 22%

Registered voters in Chicago, 1983: 1.6 million (the year Harold Washington first ran for Mayor successfully)
Registered voters in Chicago, 2003: 1.43 million
Drop in registered voters between 1983 and 2003: 170,000

Chicago population, 2000: 2,896,016 (Chicago is challenging these numbers as too low)
Chicago population, 1990: 2,783,726
Chicago population, 1980: 3,005,072
% change in Chicago population, 1980 to 2000: roughly 3% (this number is in dispute)

Conclusions: fewer people are voting, and fewer people are voting for Daley, in significant numbers.

Two poles of debate: fewer people are registered to vote or bother to vote today because 1)everybody is extremely happy with Richie Daley and his minions; 2) everybody has given up on the hopeless corruption of the electoral system in Chicago, and across the country generally.

Question to Angry Irish: where is the sweeping public mandate for Daley in these numbers?

I love the internet.

sources: chicagoelections.com (Chicago Board of Elections), www.chipublib.org/004chicago/timeline/population.html (Chicago Public Library), student-voices.org/news/index.php3 (Chicago Sun-Times)

A brief synopsis:

NYC wants to see if Chicago can meet their low estimates. Chicago needs to increase its numbers. The cities trade insults.

Numbers can best be boosted by insulting ethnic groups, blaming everyone but yourself for the fact that numbers are low, discouraging conflict because as we all know protests are fun and it's easy to get 100,000 people in the streets by taking a chill pill. And we can get really far by misreading people and not giving a shit about what anyone has to say. It takes a man to step in, play referee and solve the problem. Not.

Ms./Mr. Election posts election stats and wonders why someone thinks Daley had a mandate. No one said Daley had a mandate, rather there was the intimation that we all share the blame for apathy. One hopes that includes the people in this thread - I don't see too many lefties trying to propose an alternative.

Of course, New York elected a fucking Republican. Ball is in New York's court. Play on.

Let me break it down for you a bit further by saying. In responce to my challange as far as I can tell your responce has been to bicker and argue over the Irish being rasist and your mayor, if he can be called such rulling over such a pithy community, as chicago. Your responce to my challange has been to reduce the numbers of you attending rallies why I actually read an articul on you main stream paper the Chicago Tribune's web page that the movement was dying off. Not that I beleive them, it can't be not with all your arguments about who is Irish what a brother is and who stole who's bovien sex slave last night and took it crussing down to where ever it is you small town folk go. If you continue in this vain emporor bush will rull the world before you even make a move to fullfill your boasts that you actually have more then ten thousand people around your farmming community.
By the way in responce to the comment of why was I on a computer while a magor protest was going on, and not out in the streets. Well I was in the streets and on a computer at the same time. We have this thing A newer technology so perhaps it has as of yet not reached you in the back woods. It is known as a Laptop. That's Lap as in where you craddle you cheese fries and top as in where NYC is and where chicago can only dream of. Its a wonderfull device you can even telegraph to order one if need be...
-- lets keep this all in good fun I don't expect to much of you farmers any how.