Good try, Carl, but it won't wash. The attempt to differentiate between the "good" pro-war politicians and the "bad" pro-war politicians lets you promote your political allies, while taking the rest of us along for the ride.

Schakowsky and Gutierrez, like all the rest of the Chicago area Congressional delegation, voted for the latest war appropriation. In fact, while a few years ago Schakowsky had been voting consistently against Iraq/Afghanistan war funding*, and Gutierrez had a mixed record, with the new Democratic Congress, they've been solidly in the PRO-war funding camp. So you want to reward their rightwards drift with speakers slots? Yes, what a brilliant strategy!

This isn't "left posturing," it's talking about the "awful truth" that Dem partisans don't want to hear about, especially as they attempt to get us all ga ga about the 2008 elections.

The U.S. wasn't kicked out of Vietnam due to a phantom alliance with "peace" Democrats, it was kicked out by:

1) the armed struggle of the Vietnamese,

2) a politically independent, international anti-war movement that had moved beyond symbolic peace demonstrations to direct action combined with mass marches, and

3) a direct action anti-war movement within broad sectors of the U.S. military itself.

#3 was greatly facilitated by #1 and #2. We've got a long road to hoe to get #2 back to within anywhere near the strength we saw during the Vietnam War. Arguably, we've got to do much better this time around, as Iraq and surrounding countries are much more strategic to U.S. world domination than Southeast Asia ever was.

All this suggests that we've got a lot of work ahead of us, and phantom hopes that Democratic Party power brokers are going to help get us there are a big diversion from this task, and just about the most absurd get rich quick scheme one could devise.

The leading Dems have clearly articulated their fealty to American domination of the region by saying that a Democratic presidency would ensure troops in Iraq through the end of their first term, 2013. Believing that you can ally with these people and thus get them to end the war is like believing in the Tooth Fairy.

* For those who don't know her and her voting record, Schakowsky's "anti-war" credentials were quite lousy even when she was (symbolically) voting against Iraq/Afghanistan war funding. Self-describing herself as a "proud Zionist," she has the most hawkishly pro-Israel/anti-Palestinian voting record of the entire Illinois delegation.

Yes, Andy, all that about Vietnam is true, and the main factor, to be sure.

But back then a Democratic Congress cut off the money, State Department people like Ellsberg exposed the Pentagon Papers, the NYT printed them, all sorts of establishment figures backed the Vietnam moratoriums, and Nixon ordered the last troops out.

Not simply of their own accord, for sure, but getting them to that point is required, isn't it?

If you can't see a difference that makes a difference between, say, Schakowsky on this war, and Bush and Company, that you're not nearly as smart as I've always assumed you were, and I'll just rest my case on that.

Along with Danny Davis and Bobby Rush, she's recording some radio and cable ads today to get people to our 'Out Now' rally on Oct 27, and I urge everyone here to do something to mobilize new forces for the event and our movement as well.

Carl said:
"If you can't see a difference that makes a difference between, say, Schakowsky on this war, and Bush and Company, that you're not nearly as smart as I've always assumed you were, and I'll just rest my case on that. Along with Danny Davis and Bobby Rush, she's recording some radio and cable ads today to get people to our 'Out Now' rally on Oct 27."

Oh great, Carl, so she's using anti-war rhetoric to score political points against a lame-duck Bush regime, while at the same time, along with Rush and Davis, voting billions FOR the war and keeping silent about the pro-war candidates in her own party, who are most likely to be the next President and pledged to carry the war through at least 2013.

Jeeze, Carl, I'll bet the people of Iraq will really appreciate that (rhetorical) difference. She supports the war, albeit with hipper rhetoric. I'm sure it's really affecting the body count.

If you can't tell how similar that is to the current regime, Carl, I guess you're not nearly as smart as I've always assumed you were.

I'll just rest my case on that.

Fine, Andy.

...'nuff said. Our differences are clear enough to all concerned.