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Announcing: The Anarcho-Leninist Debate on the State

An Anarchist and a Leninist, firmly convinced, above all else, of the need to salvage revolutionary theory from its existing state of degradation, have agreed to collaborate in taking their political principles into the ring. Join the debate! Post YOUR comments, criticisms and questions at the interactive web site
Announcing ...





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The Anarcho-Leninist


Debate on the State


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Join the debate!





Post YOUR comments, criticisms and


questions at the interactive web site:





http://struggle.net/alds


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  ** The debate question


  ** Introduction


  ** The Combatants


  ** The Debate Rules


  ** Our sponsors





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The debate question


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In the period immediately following a successful mass uprising against the bourgeoisie, should the form (or forms) of organization adopted by the proletariat to secure its ultimate liberation be understood to be a state?





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Introduction


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An Anarchist and a Leninist, firmly convinced, above all else, of the need to salvage revolutionary theory from its existing state of degradation, have agreed to collaborate in taking their political principles into the ring.





The sparks will fly in this clash of ideologies, as they beat the living dogma out of one another. The shit will be dredged from the shinola, and the fragile ideologies of both opponents, though painstakingly built over many years, may well be badly bruised (if not completely blown to pieces) by fight's end. Only one winner will emerge from this battle: revolutionary theory itself.





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The Combatants


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In the RED corner, fighting for the Leninist team, stands Ben Seattle. Ben is an information theorist and infrastructure architect focused on building and using weapons of information war to serve the consciousness and organization of the proletariat. He was quoted in the pre-match press conference as saying:





"I have seen some of what passes for discussion and debate


between "marxists" and anarchists and, as someone who


considers himself a marxist, I am appalled at the evasion,


self-deception and denial frequently practiced by "marxists"


who are unable or unwilling to confront the residue of the


period, in the twentieth century, during which "marxism" was


captured by the enemies of the working class and converted


into a state religion used to justify the permanent


suppression of the independent political voice and


independent political life of the working class. I believe


that real discussion and debate, based not on evasion, but


on a sincere belief in the power of principles is necessary.


The time for such discussion and debate is now. And, having


seen the work of Daniel and the anarcho-marxist list that he


has created, I consider him to be a worthy opponent."





In the BLACK corner, fighting for the Anarchist team, stands Daniel X-Trot. Daniel is a reformed Trotskyist involved with the struggle for refugee rights in Australia. In response to Ben's provocations in the press conference, whilst being restrained by several security guards, Daniel was quoted as saying:





"I was once a Leninist like Ben, but was convinced through


arguments conducted on the Anarcho-Marxist list, that the


state is not simply the means by which one class maintains


its rule over another, but specifically that it is the means


by which a minority class maintains its rule over a majority


class. I believe that the consequences of this question


affect the entire character of the left. I always knew there


was something wrong with the organisation I had been in, but


could never find anything wrong with their theory, so I


always assumed it was a problem with the personalities I was


dealing with. Now, I believe it is leninist theory which


leads to these problems in organization, and I have yet to


encounter an intelligent defence of Leninist ideas, as


opposed to outcries rooted in a love of orthodoxy and


organizational ritual. Ben is an intelligent and passionate


defender of Leninism, whom I have found to be loyal not to


any organization, but only to the consistency of his own


principles. I hope we can establish a spirit of


collaboration in this debate, that sets a precedent for


other debates between anarchists and leninists."





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The Debate Rules


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** The fight will be fought over at least 3 rounds,


with at least one post from each opponent in


each round, for a total of at least 6 posts.





** The opponents have agreed to respond fully and


in a non-evasive manner to all questions asked


of one another.





** The opponents shall have no more than 30 days to


respond to a post.





** The ring for the fight shall be the


Anarcho-Marxist Rapprochement and Proletarian


Democracy elists and the website at:


http://struggle.net/ALDS





** The fight will also be broadcast live to a few


other progressive lists and Indymedia sites





** Spectators should also feel free to jump in the


ring and throw some posts at either or both of


the opponents. This will be done by posting:





****** to the website MicroForums


****** or the Anarcho-Marxist Rapprochement


or Proletarian Democracy elists


****** or the other elists or Indymedia sites


to which the fight is broadcast





Opponents are only obliged to address each


other. However they may raise or respond to


thoughtful posts brought up by spectators.





** Spectators who wish their views to circulate


more widely should email their posts directly to


Daniel at: rosen (at) teachyou (dot) com. Daniel


shall be responsible for assessing the relevance


of these posts and forwarding the better posts


to the Anarcho-Marxist Rapprochement or


Proletarian Democracy elists.





** All posts shall be public domain, and may be


reposted on any other list or website in whole


or part. However we do ask, as a revolutionary


courtesy, that you link to the website at


http://struggle.net/ALDS





** In the spirit of transparency, the negotiations


between the combatants over the debate question


and other matters relating to the debate are


posted in the public archives of the pof-200


elist.





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This fight jointly sponsored by:


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** the anarcho-marxist rapprochement elist


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anarcho-marxist/


(moderator/owner: Daniel)





The purpose of this forum is to facilitate respectful and fruitful discussion between anarchists and marxists from all shades of the ideological spectrum, for the purpose of helping all participants develop and elucidate their ideas through the dialectic of criticism and counter-criticism. In this way, we become more resonant agents in the (class) struggle to effectively sabotage Capital, its (state) apparatus/apex, and its Slaves, in all areas of our lives.





Our aim is to uncover, reclaim and invoke the original unity of anti-authoritarian and communistic ideas within the socialist tradition, and to discuss a variety of historical and emergent forms for channeling and invocating (bringing-into-the-world) our class Power. Our weapons include everything from revolutionary industrial unionism to sonic warfare; anything disrupting the mining of surplus-value by invoking our Power: the unity, dignity and sentience of our Class.





Warning: This list is unmoderated, but repetitive propaganda posting will not be tolerated.





** and the proletarian democracy elist


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/proldem-open/


(moderator/owner: Ben)





Working class rule has never existed except in embryonic form (the Paris Commune of 1871 and early Soviet Russia). Nevertheless it will emerge triumphant in the 21st century. How will a modern society suppress the former ruling bourgeoisie without also suppressing the independent political life of workers?





The primary obstacle to the development of a mass movement focused on the overthrow of bourgeois rule and its replacement with a system of workers' rule is the complete theoretical bankruptcy of nearly all conceptions of workers' rule. The proletarian democracy elist is focused on helping to overcome this theoretical bankruptcy. Topics discussed include: ** competition of multiple workers' parties in the context of a stable, modern society ** The theoretically degenerate "left ecosystem" that offers activists two equally stupid alternatives: (1) a "socialist" police state or (2) eternal bourgeois rule. ** The sword of mass-based information war and the shield of separation of speech and property ** The Transition Economy ** Cargo Cult Leninism ** Participatory Economics ** the Self-Organizing Moneyless Economy





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Tomorrow


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Round one begins !





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The class war continues folks, so stay tuned for the action!


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